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Cj5 History Mystery

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by SoFla8300, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. Jan 23, 2021
    SoFla8300

    SoFla8300 Member

    South Florida
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2020
    Messages:
    64
    If I may pose a mystery.

    I have a 1973 CJ5 with a 258 1bb Carter. From the many searches on this site I have gathered that it has a Dana 44 in the back and a Dana 30 in the front (no lockers for now, will change soon enough) with a Dana 20 TC, I believe.

    This is the VIN (If I am allowed to post it) J3F835TA66664. It is the same on the firewall and the dash sticker that says it was manufactured in May, 1973.

    If I do a google search of the VIN I get 2 postings for auction. In MO as a 1975 with a 232, which is obviously incorrect as proven by the vin and the block identification stamp (thank you all for that info) but the pictures are definitely my Jeep and a 1973 with a 258 in IN. I bought it in Miami FL, and as far as I am concerned, will never leave my possession.

    It was manufactured in Toledo, OH and rolled off the line in Fleet Black, it is now red with every chip showing fleet black below it. Sadly, the original tail lights have been replaced with trailer round lights but the paint behind them, slightly larger than the current tail lights, is fleet black.

    Now for the mystery: I had it outside in the driveway on a cloudless day in bright sun and I started to see things I had missed before. There were stickers forming F1 on the cowl above the seam over the "Jeep" stamp on the driver's side and 2 small rubber stops under the VIN sticker on the left dash just below the headlight and wiper switches. Ever so faintly there is remnants of a peeled off sticker above both rubber stops which fill holes in the dash. One says "siren" and the other says "red light". This leads me to believe that it was actually used in some fire service somewhere but I cannot trace it past the 2 auctions. Is there a way to see the actual history of my Jeep from the factory and forward? VIN searches bring up errors as it is not a 17 digit VIN. Fleet black makes me think it could have possibly been sold into some federal job, forestry maybe?

    Either way, I would really appreciate your input on the matter. May not go anywhere but it was enough of a mystery to me to bring to you all.

    I would be happy to post pictures, but my infancy on the forum does not allow me to post pictures. If/when I can I will share what I took.

    Can't get enough of the site, I'm here every day. I would post more, but I'm learning from you guys and don't have much in the terms of experience to chime in on most of the posts. I can certainly do the work but I don't have a plethora of knowledge to share.

    Thank you for your help.

    Todd
     
    Fireball likes this.
  2. Jan 23, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    If you have a bunch of pictures you will need a 3rd party site to host the pictures Flickr imger and the like. (Avoid photobucket)
     
    SoFla8300 likes this.
  3. Jan 23, 2021
    OzFin

    OzFin Vintage Jeep Guy

    Michigan
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    Jul 16, 2007
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    940
    Image Hosting. is a great picture hosting site.
    Intuitive to use, reasonable $, & owner is a cool JEEP enthusiast.
     
    SoFla8300 likes this.
  4. Jan 23, 2021
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Entirely possible it was a forestry (fire) vehicle.

    But I don't know how you'd trace it. Unless you find more identifying markings.
     
    SoFla8300 likes this.
  5. Jan 23, 2021
    Dave B

    Dave B Frankenjeep '67

    Northern Minnesota
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
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    650
    Look familiar? Good luck on your search of specific history! Others will chime in if they have clues.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Jan 24, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Hi - I don't know that there's any compulsory tracking of vehicles by VIN other than what the states do for licensing and registration. I had thought that information was not routinely available to the public. Maybe your state registry will help you; I don't know. Depending on how important this is to you, I'd suggest you make an effort to find the previous owner and trace back from there. If it originated in Indiana, it's likely worth less there than it is in Florida. Whether that premium is enough to pay for transport to Florida, I don't know.

    Regarding your Jeep appearing as representing some other vehicle, likely the seller just put up pictures of whatever Jeep they had pictures of. Ads often have a disclaimer that the pictured vehicle is only representative of what's for sale. And used car sellers can have some pretty low standards of behavior, from what I've seen. I would not read much into it. If you worry, check that the sequential serial number stamped into the frame matches the sequential part of the VIN.

    Paint code 021 is Raven Black according to my book, which is not a fleet color. The fleet colors could overlap when the factory wanted the regular line colors to include something like black or white. You often saw fleet colors like orange (Omaha Orange) or yellow (Transport Yellow) cross the line to the dealer's lots, since dealerships were free to order any color from both lists, regardless of the vehicle's ultimate destination. And if there was a white or black or red in the regular line colors, an effective duplicate would not be offered in the fleet colors.

    This is a somewhat long-winded route to saying this may have just been an available and suitable vehicle for some local agency, bought off the local dealer's lot. If it was painted red for their purpose, that's quite a radical color change from the original black. If it was ordered for the agency, there was a suitable red (Trans Am Red) which the dealership could have ordered routinely. Red over black is not an easy change. I'd also observe that - where I worked - they would never have ordered a 232 as part of the inventory, since the 258 option was cheap ($25? $50? something like that) and, given that, customers would prefer the larger 258 generally. If this were a 232, to me that would tip toward a fleet sale, but it being a 258 does not say much.

    To me, this could have been a used vehicle that the agency (local fire department?) bought as a used vehicle for a specific purpose. All of this is just speculation on my part, with weak evidence.

    Good looking Jeep in the picture, if that's yours!
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
    SoFla8300 likes this.
  7. Jan 24, 2021
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Think of it like the history of a really interesting woman...

    ...best not to ask.
     
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  8. Jan 24, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    There's another possibility - the agency needed the Jeep now. May is very late in the model year (note the high sequential number - 700,000 vehicles is a very good year for Jeep), and I expect Jeep was not accepting orders for '73s by that time. If the buyer wanted to order something special, they likely would have needed to wait for a 1974 model, not due till September. Also, dealerships would routinely trade vehicles if one of their competitors had a vehicle that met the customer's needs, and they did not. I'm sure there was something in this for both dealerships, but the transaction costs would be hidden in the sale price somewhere.
     
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  9. Jan 24, 2021
    SoFla8300

    SoFla8300 Member

    South Florida
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    64
    Thanks guys I will look into that. I was able you use the forum test page for pictures but not a regular post. I don't have that many pictures to post I just wanted to post a couple pics like Dave B did.

    Dave, that's her. That is the exact Jeep in my garage as I write this. It is the one in my avatar, except it has a 2.5 lift and waiting on different tires and wheels. Nothing else will change on it in the near future. I like the way it is for now and I don't have plans to change it, just enjoy it.
     
  10. Jan 24, 2021
    SoFla8300

    SoFla8300 Member

    South Florida
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    Thank you timgr, and yes, Dave's post is my Jeep. I am not by far an expert on anything Jeep, I looked up that code on this site 1973 Color Codes - Jeep Paint Cross-Reference and the comment section on the far right said "fleet color", unless I am reading it wrong which is always a possibility. I have no idea what the red color is on the jeep except that it may match something from a fire company somewhere. It is definitely a repaint and the touchup areas over the years after it was painted red don't match the color of the rest of the body color. Oddly I didn't notice any of this until it was in bright sunlight and I happened to notice the F1 on the side.

    It is not that important to get to the bottom of it other than to find my Jeep's story since it looks to have been in the fire service or maybe some government job. I think all Jeeps have stories and it is just entertaining to hear about them.
    It is just a fun exercise and I didn't know if there was any comprehensive data on how to chase the rabbit down the rabbit hole.

    I think my biggest hurtle is all the auctioning that goes on everywhere. The PO that I bought it from told me he got it at auction, stored it for a while, and listed it for sale (more about money than the Jeep). He used pictures that were clearly from an earlier life as it didn't represent the overall condition of the vehicle. Low standards for sure. The other sites that have the pictures are classiccars and buysellsearch. The one listed as a '75 with a 4-speed must have just used the picture like you said. This Jeep has done quite a bit of traveling between MO, IN and FL and amazingly has no rust and original pans. There are a couple of PO tweaks here and there (moving the spare to the tailgate without a carrier and some holes for speakers or switches) but it's been garaged most of it's life based on the condition overall on the sheet metal. Tailgate has the AMC badge and no rust. I'm extremely happy with the purchase but my Jeep needs are simple. I like them stock with just enough chips and scratches to make it authentically used and broken in.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
  11. Jan 24, 2021
    SoFla8300

    SoFla8300 Member

    South Florida
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    No truer words could be spoken. My personal image of the Jeep is probably way better than the truth.
     
  12. Jan 24, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    NP - they're just wrong. Likely it was a fleet color in some other year and has the same code. Here's the PPG sheet for '73 Jeep - says the same thing, also wrong. 1973 Jeep

    Here's the Jeep parts book -
    1973JeepPaintCodes (600 x 402).jpg

    In '72, it's a fleet color, with the same name and code. Fleet or line, that's something of a distinction without a difference. I expect Jeep dealers sold a lot of vehicles to agencies, and they needed to keep some form of standard colors available for those agency sales. The line colors changed to make the new models "new" and with the fashion of the day, and may or may not include these standard colors.
     
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  13. Jan 24, 2021
    SoFla8300

    SoFla8300 Member

    South Florida
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    Yep, can't get anymore straight forward than that, Raven Black it is.
     
  14. Jan 24, 2021
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Certain large customers buying 'fleets' of vehicles can specify their color, and presumably also get a quantity discount. Other customers, municipal or governmental for instance, can sometimes buy the same vehicles in the same colors and get a reduced price because of the initial quantity.
     
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