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68 Cj5 Holley Super Sniper Tbi 2gc Or Howell Tbi

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Phillykaiser79, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Feb 28, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    No kidding! $400 seems pretty insane.

    I'm with you there re: BJs/Holley. This is a gigantic amount of money to risk on something the manufacturer outright says won't work, versus the Howell which seems to have been proven on the Dauntless.

    Pretend I know next to nothing about internal combustion engines. If an oddfire engine has a distributor that sets the spark timing mechanically, and this is separated from an EFI system because said EFI system's ECU won't read the uneven spark timing, what's the point of even having EFI? Won't the EFI simply just squirt fuel down into the intake when the gas pedal gets mashed? And you'd just set idle on your fancy touch screen (but with no RPM data)? How is any of that worth swapping $1,300 for a carburetor?
     
    Tom_Hartz likes this.
  2. Feb 28, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    All the Holley needs is an evenly space crank signal. Even if your spark timing is still controlled by mechanical/vacuum advance, there are tons of benefits to EFI:
    • Better cold starts
    • Better fuel efficiency
    • Runs well at any altitude
    • Runs fine at any angle
    • Not effected by bumpy roads
    Advantages of the Holley over the Howell:
    • The Holley has a wider self tuning range with a wide-band O2 sensor
    • The throttle body bolts onto the stock intake with no adapters
    • You can fine tune the Holley yourself with the included tuner
    Advantages for the Howell:
    • No special crank trigger required
    • Howell will do the tuning for you, but this can take some back and forth if your engine is modified
    • The odd-fire V6 is officially supported
     
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  3. Feb 28, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Affordable fuel injection is similar to Howell but pretty good with modifications I had, and the price point for what I needed on the 4.3 was less.
    I'll email them monday as to if the oddfire in my in-laws 69 225 will be an issue.
    I had an upcharge for the new distributor, coil, and wires...
     
    truckee4x4 likes this.
  4. Feb 28, 2021
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Essentially the TBI (Throttle Body Fuel Injection) is just an 'electronic carburetor' at it's most basic sense. The signal inputs from things like: Mass Air Flow, Temp, Throttle Position, and Vacuum (to start the list) are augmented in 'MOST' systems with an O2 sensor from the exhaust. This tells the computer if your running rich or lean. HOW it deals with this are differences between the systems as they have changed over time. The original setups just used the inputs to follow a prescribed 'tune' that you could manually change (early Holley) or were burned into chips (factory and the patter Howell follows). The newer setups like the Sniper, or the ones I use like FAST-EZ EFI, FiTech, Summit, Powerjection, etc take that O2 input and DYNAMICALLY change that 'Tune'. It literally learns as you drive - the more and varied you drive - the more complete the tune gets.

    What your talking about with the 'squirting fuel' is pretty close - except for the other items EFI brings with the learning, running at angles, not caring about altitude.... Now the other aspect has to due with 'Port Injection' where the 'Squirt' is timed with the ignition. That is really only viable or even worth doing at the "PORT", ie intake Valve - hence 'Multi Point/Port Fuel Injection' on most modern engines.

    In the end - what's a 'great, self tuning, run anywhere, no hassle' fuel system worth to you? I started with it on the jeep because if something happened to me, my wife couldn't drive out of the places we went in the jeep. Way too many 'three foot' pedal places to keep it running, off camber, over rocks. She can point it in granny with the lockers and just go if needed.
     
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  5. Feb 28, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Just out of curiosity does anyone know what, electrically speaking, is the nature of a HEI tach output?

    Ground/12 volts?
    Open/12 volts?
    Open/gnd?​

    Enquiring Minds Want to Know...
     
  6. Feb 28, 2021
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I believe it is ground/12 volts. The tach signal is tied to the "C' terminal of the module which is the negative side of the coil primary circuit.
    hei module wiring diagram - Wiring Diagram (2bitboer.com)
     
  7. Mar 1, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Thanks @Warloch and @Fireball!

    Forgive me if I'm asking a redundant question from earlier in the thread, but what in your opinion @Fireball is the best way to engineer a means to derive an evenly spaced crank signal from an Oddfire Dauntless and feed it to a Sniper?

    A Hall-effect disk/sensor combo, working in parallel with a filtered Tach signal coming from the HEI?

    Has anyone done this before?
     
  8. Mar 1, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    3 bolts evenly spaced in the dampner holes and a Holley universal sensor.
     
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  9. Mar 1, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    As noted in the a link you posted earlier in the thread: Odd-Fire V-6 with Hall-Effect crank trigger for RPM signal.. Someone has one running with a flying magnets and hall effect sensor. The output from this would be the tach input for the Sniper and you would not use the tach signal from the HEI at all. The Hall effect sensor puts out a square wave signal compatible with the tach input on the Sniper. The relevant post from that link:

    "Success. The Hall-Effect sensor is connected to the Crank Signal Positive/violet wire. The ignition type is set to CDI box. I have a nice RPM reading. The engine starts quickly and idles well. Now it's time to get out and take a test drive."​
     
  10. Mar 1, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Yes - and I followed up on that forum with the OP to ask about his setup and how it has held up over time but have not heard back....not surprising since the post was a few years old. I was hoping someone here had tried it.

    Three bolts in the dampener sounds like a better / cheaper solution that utilizes a Ferrous steel-type sensor than machining a disc with flying magnets.
     
  11. Mar 1, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

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    I have an idea for a unit that will take the oddfire tach signal & output an evenly spaced signal to an EFI, with the box & everything I'm guessing about $30 worth of parts. Still noodling this out though.
     
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  12. Mar 1, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I am working on converting my Howell TBI kit over to crank fire now. Howell recommended using a 2012 corvette cam sensor to provide the signal to the old GM TBI computer. I just got in the sensor, appropriate pigtail and will hopefully be installing them in the next couple weeks.
     
  13. Mar 1, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Very interested in what you guys have going on!

    I have access to a 3D printer, a laser cutter and a CNC router and CNC plasma table at our local shared workshop, if I can help with any prototyping of any parts let me know?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  14. Mar 1, 2021
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    I knew someone on here would eventually go this route. With modern electronics there is no reason this couldn't be done electronically and put inside the jeep and wired to the EFI controller.
    Howard you need to run with this and make a little money on the side!!
     
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  15. Mar 1, 2021
    SFaulken

    SFaulken Active Member

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    Honestly, shouldn't be hard with something like an arduino.
     
  16. Mar 1, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's get a working design first, or at least something that ticks all the right boxes in spice.
     
  17. Mar 1, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I was pondering that same idea myself…

    Does anyone know of a resource where someone has attached an oscilloscope to an oddfire HEI?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2021
  18. Mar 1, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Doesn't the firing go 45-75-45-75-45-75? East to add a flip-flop and divide by two to get an evenly spaced stream. Then you need to convince the computer that the half-speed stream is really full speed.
     
  19. Mar 1, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm leaning towards few discrete gates (beacuse I'm an old fart) but the logic design isn't the hard part- it's the supply rail noise filtering, input signal conditioning & suitable components to survive in an automotive environment. I'd love to do something anyone could buy the parts & slap them together on a prototype board but automotive rated ACE-Q100 parts seem to tend to smt flatpacks with .050" lead spacing, not the sort of thing the average person can solder down to a board :(. If absolutely necessary to go smt then it might be worth looking into a 100 lot quantity order from a pcb prototyping house.

    But first to complete the conceptual design, probably a week or so.
     
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  20. Mar 1, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

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    Not if you put a dual rise/fall edge detector in there after the flip flop :D

    The fun part is working up an edge detector that will produce a reasonable out put pulse; I'm thinking 5 -10 mS would be about right.
     
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