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Cj3b - Herm Power Steering Kit

Discussion in 'Flat Fender Tech' started by RVSwisher, Sep 26, 2021.

  1. Sep 26, 2021
    RVSwisher

    RVSwisher Member

    Rochester, MN
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
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    129
    I have been planning on using Herm’s Reverse Ford power steering kit on my 3b for some time. While installing today, I found out that the stock front cross member does not allow the steering box to be placed far enough forward to get a good drag link angle.

    Has anyone else used this kit on a 3b or other flat fender?

    If I have to modify the cross member, I may just sell the kit and go with a manual Saginaw box out front.

    Thoughts or advice

    RVSwisher
     
    Focker likes this.
  2. Oct 14, 2021
    w3srl

    w3srl All-around swell dude Staff Member

    Port Orange, FL
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    Nov 6, 2002
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    4,275
    Th manual Saginaw swap is a good one in a flatty, you will never miss not having PS, unless you are running huge tires or have a tiny steering wheel.
     
  3. Oct 15, 2021
    OnlyOneDR

    OnlyOneDR Member 2023 Sponsor

    R
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    When I look at Herm's site and the customer pictures of the install there is a 3A shown and you can see the not-straight draglink. Unless you found a much longer pitman arm (which will make the steering faster and more twitchy) I see no other way to correct that.
     
  4. Oct 21, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Sep 17, 2009
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    Yes, the manual Saginaw units work well in a flatty but don't let your thumbs/fingers linger between the spokes of the steering wheel while in the rocks. It hurts.

    With the exception that it is perhaps a bit less obvious, I see no advantage in Herm's kit.
     
  5. Oct 21, 2021
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
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    8,513
    The only advantage I see is Herm trying to produce a "kit" that the average guy can install with out a lot of custom fab work being required.
    With that being said, I love my Saginaw.
     
    dnb71R2 likes this.
  6. Jan 22, 2022
    1MtnJeep!

    1MtnJeep! New Member

    Texas
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    Mar 6, 2019
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    I'm waiting on some info from Advance Adaptors... want to see what they recommend. I'm looking at doing the same on my 3B.
     
  7. Jan 22, 2022
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    Herms kit:
    Less visually obtrusive,
    Allows for a wider winch
    Less fabrication skills needed for the box to clear the crossmember more to clear the motor mounts.
     
  8. Jan 23, 2022
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Sep 17, 2009
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    Or one can use the long neck C3 Saginaw box and not have to mess with the cross member at all. I actually think a JK box would be less work than Herm's kit if one is into doing things backward. It also has a long neck.
     
  9. Jan 25, 2022
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    I used an intermediate CJ PS bracket on mine, no crossmember modification needed.
     
    Jw60 likes this.
  10. Jan 25, 2022
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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  11. Jan 25, 2022
    OldAdobe

    OldAdobe Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    N. CA
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    Feb 26, 2018
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    Finger breaking from steering box feedback (been there with an 8N).is that feedback also common to the manual saginaw units? do the reverse Ford rotation boxes prevent that from happening?
     
  12. Jan 25, 2022
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I think you get the feedback from any manual system. The overall ratio and degree of slop will factor into what is actually felt. In my experience, a relatively tight PS system eliminates 90+ percent of it.
     
    OldAdobe likes this.
  13. Jan 26, 2022
    1MtnJeep!

    1MtnJeep! New Member

    Texas
    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2019
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    Advance told me their kits cant be used with the 4 cyl and stock set up on a 3B like mine? Huh? Wha? I asked why and got no reply… anyone have an answer that may help me?
     
  14. Jan 26, 2022
    timsresort

    timsresort Active Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    South Lake Tahoe CA
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    I keep hearing how the Herm thing is problematic. I think he tried to reinvent the wheel, and it isn't working out well. The Saginaw conversion has been done for a lot of good reasons for 50-plus years. Lop off the stock column, Borgeson joints and collapsible shaft, tunnel through the crossmember, Saggy 4 turn box on an Advance mount on the frame. 6-inch-ish pitman, and don't look back. Any half-assed jeeper-fabricator can do it.
     
    73 cj5 likes this.
  15. Jan 26, 2022
    Framer Mike P

    Framer Mike P Member

    Hopkinton, NH
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    Jan 4, 2016
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    I would guess it has to do with the routing of the steering shaft around the motor mount. We originally did the advanced adapters manual steering conversion on our 55 cj5 with f head around 40 years ago and I remember my father making several phone calls to AA. The solution they came up with was to extend the original column. The intermediate shaft then passed under the motor mount to the steering box. It was far from ideal and it was too much of an angle for the u-joint at the bottom of the column, you could feel the bind when turning the wheel. I do think now it might work if one was to use a double u-joint and a support bearing on the intermediate shaft.
     
  16. Jan 28, 2022
    jeepdaddy2000

    jeepdaddy2000 Active Member

    Eagle Point oregon
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    Jun 24, 2004
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    My CJ had a manual box adapted to it when I bought it. Years later went wheeling and clipped a tree with the back of the front tire. The wheel spun out of my hand and the brody knob hit my forearm so hard it broke off (damn near my arm as well). That was with the stock steering dampener installed.

    Removed the brody knob and installed a PS box.

    Manual boxes are susceptible to "kickback"" without the hydraulic assist to help "lock" the box in place. The internal piston runs with a column of fluid on either side. In order to get the pitman to move, it is forced to push the piston and force the fluid out behind it. This creates a natural dampening.
     
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  17. Jan 28, 2022
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    true but the main thing that's happening is that the the valve controlling the fluid sees a difference between where the steering wheel is pointed and where the wheels are trying to point and ends up actively fighting against it.
     
  18. Jan 29, 2022
    jeepdaddy2000

    jeepdaddy2000 Active Member

    Eagle Point oregon
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    Unless you are in the straight ahead position. There the valve is neutral and the fluid alone keeps the box steady.
    I tried using a simplistic explanation to encompass both situations.
     
  19. Jan 29, 2022
    cj2atruck

    cj2atruck Member

    Spokane, WA
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    Dec 12, 2020
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    I've done so many Saginaw PS conversions I've lost count, and these can be done by most reasonably handy Jeep guys. Use a forward after market steering mount made of 3/8 plate. I also make a brace that braces the braces the box to the opposite frame rail. If you can weld or have access to someone who can weld convert the drag link to high steering to move it away from the frame. I used DOM tubing to make it near unbreakable.


     
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  20. Jan 29, 2022
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    If the steering wheel tries to snap around & add an extra bendy point in your arm then the front wheels are not wanting to be pointing straight ahead. :rolleyes:

    As soon as whatever it was grabs them then with power steering the valve will, as long as you have a hold of the steering wheel, fight the movement they want to make; that's the point i was making.

    It doesn't matter if you're steering straight or half way through a turn, the valve operates only when there's a torque force between the steering wheel & the steering gear.
     
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