1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

68 Cj5 Holley Super Sniper Tbi 2gc Or Howell Tbi

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Phillykaiser79, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. Oct 9, 2021
    amboynut

    amboynut Member

    Chelatchie, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2021
    Messages:
    310
    Published timing specs are a cautious compromise based on "average" driving and the fuel available at the time.
    I haven't used a timing light in decades.
    With the engine warmed up, disconnect and plug the vacuum advance port, if there is one.
    Attach a vacuum gauge to any vacuum source on the manifold, not the vacuum advance port.
    Rotate the distributor to find highest vacuum. Tighten the bolt. Done.
    If it pings under heavy load back the timing down a little.
    Remember, if it never pings you can use more advance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
    truckee4x4 likes this.
  2. Nov 17, 2021
    shadetreetim

    shadetreetim Member 2022 Sponsor

    Riverside, Ca -...
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    Messages:
    199
    I am waiting for my Holley Sniper BBD kit to arrive and am trying to plan my install. Not the same kit as yours, and mines going on a 258 with header and DUI ignition. But the thought I have been having is fuel delivery. I have an inline high pressure pump, which is known to not have good suction. I've read where that is not ideal for our Jeeps with their top of tank located feed line, suffering from cavitation and vapor lock. But have also read that some industrial applications have solved the problem by placing a low pressure pump close to the tank and the high pressure pump in line after it. Obviously an in tank pump would be ideal, but don't know where to source one that would fit my 15 gallon tank.
     
  3. Nov 17, 2021
    SFaulken

    SFaulken Active Member

    Bellevue, WA
    Joined:
    May 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,178
    Ford did this in the F-Series from 1985-1991, two low pressure lift pumps in tank (on dual tank systems), and a high pressure pump on the frame rail. In fact, the Frame mounted HP pump is a fairly popular junkyard source for alot of guys that roll their own EFI setups.
     
  4. Nov 17, 2021
    shadetreetim

    shadetreetim Member 2022 Sponsor

    Riverside, Ca -...
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2019
    Messages:
    199
    Good to know. I have a VW Vanagon I put a Audi A4 1.8 turbo motor in and the Ford HP pump works great for it. The Vanagon has a bottom feed tank on it though so it doesn’t have to pull the fuel. May have to try that when I put the Holley on the Jeep.
     
  5. Jan 2, 2022
    Dillon

    Dillon New Member

    Montana
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    So for those keeping up on this, I pulled the trigger on a kit, installed it with some minor issues with some stuck bushings in the intake. Using just coil negative with a Pertronix setup for the 225 it runs! I have some minor issues that have been touched on on the Holley forums such as what seems like vapor lock after prolonged low speed runs (not had an issue at highway speeds yet), and idle being on the rough side. As far as I can tell on the vapor lock it could be the regulator on the kit got knocked out of place during shipping and the fuel pressure is not at the correct pressure at high engine air temps around the throttle body. and ive not had time to explore the idle issue but it comes down to either timing or the dual-plane intake on the motor and the efi not being able to differentiate what side needs how much fuel compared to the other. Plan is to adjust the timing first and see if that solves it otherwise I'll be making a spacer that allows both sides to use the vacuum they create to pull fuel from both sides of the throttle body. Other than a slightly erratic rpm display I've seen nothing that I could blame on the odd fire tach signal.
     
    Fireball, Jw60 and SFaulken like this.
  6. Jan 2, 2022
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,717
    Did you go with a fuel return or returnless system?
     
  7. Jan 2, 2022
    Dillon

    Dillon New Member

    Montana
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2020
    Messages:
    5
    i have the return run from the throttle body back to the tank.
     
    Jw60 likes this.
  8. Feb 13, 2022
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Truckee CA
    Joined:
    May 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,322
    Kyle - I know you don't have the Holley EFI setup, but that you have the trigger bolts and the Holley sensor. I'm tackling wiring now and wondering about the right way to wire this sensor to the Holley EFI. Keeping it in reference to the sensor directions, it says:

    I will use a 12V source from IGN for the Red, the White goes to the violet wire (Crank Signal Positive (+) Engine Speed Signal Input) in the Holley harness, and then for the ground - did you bother with shielded wire and an-line filter or diode in this run to the frame/chassis?

     
  9. Feb 13, 2022
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,549
    I just ran a shielded wire and grounded one side, no diode or or filter. Sweet and simple.
     
  10. Apr 27, 2023
    68CJ-5

    68CJ-5 Had to get away

    Gone
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2023
    Messages:
    123
    I've followed this for over a year but was unable to comment due to site registration issues (never received multiple requests for confirmation emails).

    I bought my CJ-5 in February, 2021. I've yet to get any serious use out of it.

    The initial read of this thread convinced me, "Hell no", regarding EFI, and at that point I really wasn't even considering it. But after picking up my CJ mid-COVID, I ran it to some local rock bluffs on a shake-down run to see how offroad-worthy it was. In the past I've had three 4Runners, starting with their first-ever in 1984/85, but was always curious about the CJ-5. Pretty decent, but it damn-near died over rough stuff and certainly DID die just before cresting the tops of the steep rocky bluffs.

    Backing down dicey long steep rocky inclines with a dead motor (dead power steering and brakes) isn't a lot of fun. Carb float bounce shut the motor down (Holley 4160 390 cfm). We tried tweaking the carb and floats, but to no real solution. If I was going to keep the 390 I'd go to smaller jets. If I can't dial this EFI in then I'll be going to the Holley Slayer 450 CFM in favor of its adjustability options for jets and the like, at least until someone comes up with a PROVEN EFI for this engine.

    Here's the Holley Slayer 450:

    https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/carburetors/street/parts/SL-450-VS

    So a local fulltime mechanic and fellow CJ owner presented himself to have a chat with me after one of my test runs, and he soon asked if I'd ever considered going to EFI to address the carb issues. I was yet to know if the Jeep was worth the additional investment, but felt that I needed to solve the fuel issue if I was going to do any serious 4 wheeling with this Jeep. He recommended FiTech as being the industry EFI leader, with Holley being in the mix alongside.

    I'd never heard of FiTech, so did some research. I was also totally EFI/TBI illiterate, other than replacing injectors on my cars. But I had a friend in Vegas who converted his 60's high-dollar Chevy muscle car to EFI, and that performance was so impressive that it stuck in my head. I didn't know that such a thing existed.

    I felt I needed to bite the bullet and step up to the plate.

    I won't go into detail right now, but I purchased and installed one of FiTech's Go Street 400 HP master kits. Major effort to install correctly. I'll post a separate thread later.

    https://fitechefi.com/product/30003-go-street-efi-400hp-system/

    https://fitechefi.com/product/go-efi-in-line-frame-mount-fuel-delivery-kit/

    It wasn't until I contacted FiTech after the install, for the first time, that I was told that their units WOULD NOT WORK with the odd fire due to the tach signal issues.

    Was I just a bit pissed? Three guesses.

    The short version is that last week FiTech finally advised me to consider trying a crank trigger in place of the HEI tach signal. That brought me back here after nearly a year's absence. I installed the FiTech over a year ago, but after ANOTHER fuel/spark related breakdown last May, a year ago, I parked the Jeep and only now have gotten back to it.

    By that time, I was so sick of the time and $$ that I'd poured into making the FiTech work, time I didn't have to spare, that I had to walk away from it. I was ready to put the carb back on and sell it, another big job in itself. The motor had just suddenly died 10 miles from home while I was heading up to one of my projects after thinking I was finally going to have a functioning EFI unit. I didn't know if the EFI's ECU had failed, a known problem with FiTech, or if it was something to do with my HEI, or similar. I didn't have time to test anything other than to check for blown fuses; I had to get busy on my renovation projects during the good weather months, 2.5 hours from home. We have a Polaris Ranger 6x6 up there for when we need it, and it's a beast offroad. I had driven the Jeep 50 miles south to have my exhaust upgraded to accommodate the o2 sensor provided by FiTech, and it didn't do half-bad on the road, with some impressive traits as the learning curve of the ECU adjusted to the highway driving. Accellerated from a dead stop like a bat-out-of-hell, loved climbing at speed as long as I kept it in a high-rev range, and cruised well under a light load in 4th gear.

    I've got to add that I've been impressed-as-hell with the effort that @Norcal69 has made with the Howell EFI. I felt his pain. So glad to see him finally resolve that issue, an inspiration for me in my current situation. I just can't believe that any of these companies hasn't already addressed this crank trigger issue with their EFI's. So glad to see Howell finally working on a bracket.

    Kudos to them.

    Are you listening, FiTech and Holley?

    I myself have already contacted FiTech and Holley to do the same, pointing both to this website. But I'm leaning toward going with a threaded, adjustable, sensor, rather than a fixed-type. I'm also going to see if I can shoot it sideways across the stem body of the bolts rather than down toward the head. It'll be a work-in-progress. I also plan to use the bracket as a fuel pump block plate, as Howell's doing, and was going to suggest that a while back.

    I have a local fabricator that I'll be working with. The Howell uses a 5v signal, while the FiTech needs 12v, so the FiTech is very easy to wire in.

    If I come up with something suitable for a bracket I'll see if we can offer them up for others. In general terms, I'm very impressed with the FiTech system, but will hold final judgment until I have a fully functioning system. I'll post a thread with progress and updates.

    For general reference and ideas, here's a link to Holley's crank trigger systems, pricey as they may be:

    https://www.holley.com/products/fue...on/modules_and_sensors/sensors/crank_sensors/
     
    Shop Gumby and vtxtasy like this.
  11. Apr 28, 2023
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    3,549
    Since you are already using aftermarket parts, you might as well just buy a generic $69 hall effect sensor, 3bolts/top loc nuts, fuel pump block of plate and a piece of 3/16" flat bar.
    The only reason to use OEM parts (cam sensor as a crank sensor) is if your trying to have your entire system be serviceable by your local FLAPS. That option went out the window when you went with FiTech.......
    Truckee 4x4 did a really,really nice job on his trigger wheel but a trigger wheel is not necessary and is redundant for this application.
    All you need to do is run 12v key run power to the sensor, ground to the sensor and run the output signal from the sensor to the tach wire on your FITech EFI system.
    Install 3 bolts evenly spaced around your balancer.
    Weld an arm coming down from your fuel pump block off plate with a hole for the sensor that locates it in the path of the bolts.
    Install the generic hall sensor with a jamb nut on each side of the mounting bracket.
    Adjust the sensor until it is about 4-5 stacked business cards thick off of the bolt heads.
    Just like that you crank fired an odd fire engine!
     
    vtxtasy, Rozcoking23, 68CJ-5 and 2 others like this.
  12. Apr 29, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    I have the Holley TA470 that is set up for offroad. I am installing an AEM o2 sensor. I have welded in the bungs already. You did not say if you had the offroad needle and seats
    on your 390CFM. At any rate, if I can't get this carb dialed in I am thinking of getting a 390CFM and putting the TA parts on it along with the secondary metering plate. If not, I
    will consider fuel injection. I can make my own sensor mount. The Slayer carb looks good for the price point, has a secondary metering block and the floats for the jet extensions.
    It also has a larger primary bore and I would not be sure that is a good thing.
    Looking at the four barrel fuel injection, I am not sold on it as it is not sequential. That may be fine for for the street and running flat out. All four barrels open at the same time and
    it appears it would be difficult to get control of the fuel, even with a computer.
    I have the offy dual port manifold. Some guys are using a two barrel injection on these which defeats it's purpose. I don't like the short adapter and would put a 1" open spacer under
    it if there is room. This would help with fuel transition going to the four holes of the intake plenum.. That said I also have an older open plenum offy manifold if I were to go to fuel injection.
    I like Norcal's idea of a generic sensor. Makes sense.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2023
    68CJ-5 likes this.
  13. Apr 29, 2023
    68CJ-5

    68CJ-5 Had to get away

    Gone
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2023
    Messages:
    123
    I'll be selling the 390 if you're looking for one. That, and other parts I've pulled from this CJ.

    I'm not familiar with your carb, but I don't do much with carbs any more so haven't kept up. Mostly just with motorcycles. I didn't know there was an offroad package for the 390. I have a friend who builds drag motors who offered to help me re-jet the 390, but since I went to the FiTech I figured I'd keep that as a backup should the EFI not work out.

    You're right about the things you mention with the 450. I like its flexibility with jet and air swaps and the like, front and rear. My plan is to reduce the jets, particularly in the secondary, which will allow plenty of air at altitude while stopping heavy fuel issues otherwise. The 2-barrel Holley has a 63 main jet and that's it. The 450 has a 55 up front and 60 in the rear, or 115 in all, nearly double that of the 2-barrel, which clearly isn't needed. The 390 has a 51 up front, and I may put that into the 450 up front. This is all speculative right now; I'll have to see what I'm starting with. I just want to start clean rather than an unknown as I have with the 390, and when compared to what I've spent with the FiTech upgrades, that carb is pretty cheap. I'll be seeking a refund on the FiTech...

    I actually prefer the larger throat of the 450, one reason I went with that rather than going back to my 390. I prefer lean mixtures as a general rule, mostly for the fuel mileage benefits, so that's an attractive feature for myself. I've been very tempted to go back to a 2-barrel, but with the Offy intake I figured I'd just see what I could do with the 450. One thing the FiTech did prove to me was that this motor can truly shine with an adequate fuel-delivery system. That thing revved and pulled like a beast in the upper RPM range!

    Here's the crank trigger sensor that I ordered earlier today, before the FiTech took a dump. I've canceled that order since then. Summit offers it for the same price:

    https://www.ampefi.com/product/hall-effect-threaded-body-crankshaft-position-sensor/
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  14. Apr 29, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    I think I am at 51 on the TA470 primary jets and went back to the 2.5 on the power valve which was the stock one. The 390 comes with a stock 6.5 power valve. Weird.
    I am still smelling rich, burning through gas and looking forward to getting my AEM and vacuum guage in the cab. See what I can come up with. Just finished painting
    the inside of my cab today after doing the wheelhouse notch. Front tank is out and I can get to the under dash area and have few other things to get back on the road.
    Edit: I have a m/c also. Sunday I will be putting in a new master cylinder for the rear. That is the VTX.
     
    68CJ-5 likes this.
  15. Apr 30, 2023
    68CJ-5

    68CJ-5 Had to get away

    Gone
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2023
    Messages:
    123
    Yeah my bike's a little buried or I would have dug it out yesterday. Yamaha RoadStar XV 1600 cruiser. We went from 28* overnight last week to 82* in the afternoon yesterday! Of course I was out pulling the FiTech EFI from the Jeep, as well as putting the 390 back on. Just need to hook up some fuel lines today, converting back from the EFI setup and location.

    I'll be paying more attention to 390 carb internals on this go-around, something the FiTech forced me to pay a lot more attention to. Before, the carb was just one of many things I had to address with the CJ after I bought it. And it was virtually brand-new at the time, without many hours of use by the PO.

    The problem with the 390 is that you just can't pop the rear jets to replace them, you have to get new metering plates. With the 450 you can just swap the jets.

    Ideally, right now, I'd want to go with 45 jetting for the primary and 50 for the secondary, giving me 95 in all, which is 50% more than the Holley 2 barrel comes with for this motor. But right now I'm just going to run the 390 stock until the 450 comes in later this week. I'd like to come up with a 390 or 450 combo that works for everyone for offroad and highway purposes. We just don't need the fuel these carbs provide since none of us are running 400 HP with our 225's.

    And out west we have some altitude issues that can come into play, meaning that leaner jetting is good for climbing as well, with the carb richening up as the altitude increases. Same fuel input but less o2 at altitude.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Apr 30, 2023
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

    Louisville, Ky
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,381
    I put the FiTech on my oddfire. Also installed a Buick HEI distributor. My engine ran great, the RPM jumped around but the processor in the EFI smoothed things out. The crank sensor would be better but the engine ran good with out it.
     
    68CJ-5 likes this.
  17. Apr 30, 2023
    68CJ-5

    68CJ-5 Had to get away

    Gone
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2023
    Messages:
    123
    I've had one issue after another, and company support has been absolutely worthless. I've posted a dedicated thread to it.

    On Thursday I went to pull the CJ out to wash it and use the winch, before pulling it back inside to design a crank sensor, and the fuel pump wouldn't fire up. Issue is internal with the FiTech ECU. FiTech had known issues with faulty ECU's right out of the box, and replaced a ton on warranty. That makes every hiccup this unit has make me question whether the problem is in the ECU or something else unrelated. This last problem with the fuel pump made my decision very simple. Trash the damned thing and go back to the carb.

    After all of the trials trying to get this EFI to work, I can't tell you how peaceful I felt getting that Holley carb back on there last night. It may have been quirky, but it'll always get me back home.

    Heading out now to get the fuel lines hooked back up...
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  18. Apr 30, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    Went to put a new master cylinder on my M/C and I had ordered the wrong one.:banghead: Reordered the correct one.It was about 97 here today.
    I would start at 48 or 49 on the jets and the 6.5 power valve and I believe some one on here said the silver spring for the secondaries.
    Get spring loaded needles if you don't have them and you can make a vent tube with hose or whatever with holes in it . There are posts about this
    here. It keeps the fuel from coming out of the vents and into the venturis. https://allcarbs.com/product/holley-off-road-kit/



    Another linky: https://classicbroncos.com/tech/offroad-tricks-for-holley-4-barrel-
    carbs

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/192886524715
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/381190202768
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2023
    68CJ-5 likes this.
  19. May 1, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,430
    Those Yamies are nice! Mine is an '02 VTX1800. Similar bikes.
     
    68CJ-5 likes this.
  20. May 1, 2023
    68CJ-5

    68CJ-5 Had to get away

    Gone
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2023
    Messages:
    123
    I just noticed the extra links posted two posts above. Didn't notice the first time, thinking it was your 'signature'. Thanks for posting those.

    I think the AllCarbs.com link is the pertinent kit for these carbs without going to the trick metering block designed in the TA470. I am half-thinking that I should cancel my 450 in favor of the 470, due to the latter's offroad design features. I put myself on the email list for the refurb 470's, and may just go with my 390 to see if I can upgrade it satisfactorily until one of the refurbs comes up. A new 470 is still less than my FiTech cost me, so it's in the budget, but the refurbs are half the new price and even less than the new 450 I just bought.

    Do I want to be the 450 guinea pig? Maybe.

    With your rich fuel issues, I'm wondering if the 225 simply doesn't pull enough air to offset the jetting, providing you don't have a vacuum leak? I read something about that in some of my research. Did you notice any change when you stepped down to the 51 main jet, or is it possible that that's just kicking it into the secondary sooner, making it suck more fuel when you may not otherwise be drawing it? I think you can adjust that secondary vacuum by pulling the carb off and twisting a screw down low. Makes you wonder if you should jet down in the secondary as well.

    I just put a bunch of jets into my Holley buy cart, as well as the AllCarbs.com offroad kit, and will give it some thought before ordering them up. My interest with fuel delivery is STRICTLY for offroading, as well as fuel economy while running down the road. I'd like to pull my boat behind the CJ, and my usual tow rig right now is only a 2.4 ltr 4-banger with 189 HP, and it does great. I would seriously love to put that 2.4 motor into my CJ, but it's FWD and would likely prove impossible to convert. Great motor though.

    Thanks for the leads. I read a ton of threads on various carbs and EFI's as a result. Sounds like that Quadrajet works great, but mostly due to the smaller primaries. I had one on my first Chevy and it was really fun.

    Try pulling your carb and adjusting that rear butterfly vacuum to see if that helps. One of our members couldn't get his 470 to idle down until he did that, per the advice of another member.
     
New Posts