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65 Cj5 - Remove Front Drums

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Edward Lyle, Apr 27, 2022.

  1. Apr 27, 2022
    Edward Lyle

    Edward Lyle New Member

    USA
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    Thanks for all the help with my previous thread.

    I have made significant progress and am almost done with the tear down. I need to remove the front drums and they appear to be the same as one of the rear drums where the drum is pressed onto the wheel stubs.

    I bought a hub puller and was able to remove the rear passenger side hub and then get the drum off of it.

    How do I pull the front drum off? Do I need to pull the entire hub like the rear and then work the drum off that way?

    How to I get started on that?
     
  2. Apr 27, 2022
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    You won't need a hub puller. Undo the hub bearing nut(s) and locking device, and possibly back off the brake adjustment. Be prepped to service the roller bearings and seals.

    But it is possible you can remove the drum alone if the studs are not swaged. Sometimes they are just 'frozen'... Tried smacking it hard or using an air hammer in the flat areas between the studs?

    You should have a FSM if you don't yet.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2022
    Edward Lyle

    Edward Lyle New Member

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  4. Apr 27, 2022
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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  5. Apr 27, 2022
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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  6. Apr 27, 2022
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    I have only gotten into CJ5s in the last year or so.

    It puzzles me that I have found the drums swaged to the studs on both of the 67 CJ5s I have. This is not the case with the two sets of military surplus (M38A1) axles I have, which are from the same era. It is totally unnecessary on the brakes with the drums outboard of the hubs, and makes servicing the brakes a lot more work.

    I pull the hubs, cut the swages with a swage cutter, drive out the studs and replace them with studs with shorter splines so I can remove the drums next time without having to do all that.
     
    Rick Whitson likes this.
  7. Apr 28, 2022
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    What year did Willys start swageing the studs? I have 66 V 6 axels in my 64, planning on putting 11" brakes on this summer, will I need to buy a swage cutter? I have a set of 11" brakes and backing plates all rebuilt and ready to install, but forgot about the swages.
     
  8. Apr 28, 2022
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    The real question should be what year did they "stop". As far as I know all the early Jeeps, from WW2 MBs through CJ3A had Lockheed design 9" brakes with the drums inboard of the hubs and the wheel studs swaged.

    With the military versions the swaged wheel studs went away when the brakes were upgraded from the old Lockheed 9" design (inboard drums, 4 adjustment eccentrics) to the Bendix 9" (outboard drums, 2 adjustment eccentrics). I have used two sets of M38A1 axles which were military surplus M38A1. The brake drums had three screws securing them to the hubs.

    Because of this I assumed the CJ3B would have been the same, but I have only had one CJ3B, more than 30 years ago, and never worked on the brakes of that Jeep.

    This assumption was proven wrong when I started fooling around with CJ5 Jeeps.

    I have had two 67 CJ5 standard Jeeps with the 9" brakes, and both had swaged studs and did not have the screws as found on the military brakes. There is absolutely no reason the wheel studs should be swaged on these Jeeps, but that is what I found.

    If your "66 V6" is a true Dauntless Jeep, it would not have the 9" brakes as found on the CJ5 standard. Never worked on a true Dauntless, but have had the 10" Wagoner design brakes used on one end of them. I have not encountered swaged wheel studs on those, but have very little exposure to them so don't know for sure.

    Easy enough to find out, just take a wheel off.
     
  9. Apr 28, 2022
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Be interesting to know what the original rationale was at the time. Not only with jeeps.

    I can't think why the un-swaged drums would need three screws, either.
     
  10. Apr 28, 2022
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Just a comment - for your FYI, not as a criticism.

    The Wagoneer got the 11" x 2" Bendix brakes from the very beginning. These can almost always* be identified by the use an a self-adjuster cable that moves the adjuster lever. Some truck models got larger brakes, 12" x 2" and 13" x 2.5". The Wagoneer and J-truck went to Delco brakes in 1974 when they went to 6-lug wheels with an open-knuckle front axle.

    Utility series (trucks and wagons) got 11" x 2" manually adjusting brakes which I believe came from Lockheed. The last of the Utility series and the first of the J-series overlapped by a year or few, and the Lockheed brakes may have gone away for the 230-equipped Utilities.

    I believe the 10" x 2" brakes that the 225 Jeeps have are Wagner sourced, and they use a self-adjuster rod as I recall. No Jeeps other than the V-6 era CJs and Jeepsters got these brakes, AFAIK.

    Jeep went to the 11" Bendix brakes for the CJ and Commando in 1972. These are essentially the same as was was used for the J-series through 1973. In 1976, the Corporate rear axle arrived, retaining the same Bendix brakes with a revised (incompatible) backing plate. Optional front disk brakes were introduced for the CJs in 1977. Disk brakes became standard in 1978, and Jeep reduced the size of the CJ rear brakes to 10" x 1.75" midway that year. These new smaller brakes appear to be the same Bendix design.

    * Some 230-232-327 J-series had 11x2 or 12x2 manual adjusting brakes, but I believe these are both a very small minority of production and only the earliest production, '63-65ish.
     
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  11. Apr 28, 2022
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    All I can think of - if a wheel falls off, with a single circuit brake system you need the drums to stay on so you have brakes. No longer an issue with dual circuit brakes. Swages are probably lower cost than machining the drums and hubs for some fasteners. The military has different criteria from the public - high emphasis on servicing in the field.
     
  12. Apr 28, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    The swedges also keep the drums from falling on the toes of the assembly line workers.
     
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  13. Apr 28, 2022
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    The swaged studs were part of the design used in the early Jeeps with the drums inboard of the hub. My guess is the studs were swaged to keep the drum in a fixed position so it would not loosen or possibly shear off the studs, but that is just my guess. I don't know why the practice continued when they went to the drums outboard of the hubs unless it was simply a hold over part of the assembly line steps. Military Jeeps were built to Government specifications, and like me they obviously saw that practice as an unnecessary hindrance to service in the field. There has been debate about the reason for the three screws, some say they are for alignment of the brake drum, others say they were to keep the drums on during storage, some say to keep them on during the ride down the assembly line.

    Swaged studs, LH threaded studs on the driver side hubs, and those three little screws are all ideas from the early days of the automobile industry, some valid reasons, some not so much. The same things were done with vehicles other than Willys, and are seldom done in more modern vehicles.
     
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  14. May 1, 2022
    Keys5a

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    I have a ‘62/‘63 Willys wagon that originally had the OHC 230, and the front brakes are Lockheed 11”x 2” manual adjust.
    The ‘64 and ‘65 Tuxes all got 10” x 2” (I believe Lockheed) manual adjusting brakes, and when the V6 arrived, they were still 10”x 2”, but went with Wagner with self-adjusters.
    I think all V6 powered CJs got the 10” self-adjusting brakes. Prior to ‘66, I think all regular CJs got 9” brakes. I’m not sure what size brakes came on F134 CJs from ‘66-up as I’ve seen both 9” and 10”.
    For what its worth, those Lockheed 10” brakes on the early Tuxes had drums outboard of the hub, and had no swedges.
    -Donny
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2022
  15. May 19, 2022
    Edward Lyle

    Edward Lyle New Member

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    I have gotten them all removed and are putting the new brakes together.

    Question:

    Should I drill out the holes on my new drums to fit over the swage studs?

    Or should I leave them alone and see if they press on with the wheels/lugs nuts?

    Or should I just bite the bullet and put new wheel studs in?

    Thanks for all the help.
     
  16. May 19, 2022
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Put new wheel studs in. It won't be a big bullet to bite...
     
  17. May 19, 2022
    Twin2

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    replace them but
    I am for one THAT wouldn't press old studs out
    if there any of swedge left on studs . if will enlarge holes as to new studs will not be tight
     
  18. May 19, 2022
    Bondo

    Bondo Master General Re-Engineer,...

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    Ayuh,.... If I do that to mine, I'm thinkin' it's the perfect time to switch to righthanded threads,....
     
  19. May 19, 2022
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    I cut them off with a die grinder and carefully grind off the swaged portion then I can press the nubs out without any damage. The flange of the hub has to be well supported to prevent bending it.

    A press is better, but if you don't have a press they can be driven out, and new studs driven in, as long as the hub flange is well supported. I have done this with good results by opening the jaws of my big vice just wide enough for the head of the stud, and let the jaws of the vice support the flange and drive out the nubs of the old studs with a piece of steel rod for a drift, and a two pound hammer. Flip it over, place the hole over the gap in the jaws of the vice and drive in the new studs.
     
  20. May 19, 2022
    Oldpappy

    Oldpappy A.C. Fults - Curmudgeon at large 2022 Sponsor

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    Sure you can switch to right hand threaded studs, most people do that.

    I like having LH threaded studs on one side and RH on the other, on the theory it may confuse wheel thieves as much as it does tire techs.
     
    Glenn and Bondo like this.
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