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69 225 V6 Hei Installation Help Needed

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Greenshirt82, Oct 12, 2020.

  1. Nov 7, 2020
    CJMark

    CJMark Jeeper

    Spearfish, SD
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    Mar 7, 2014
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    102
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
    Greenshirt82 likes this.
  2. Nov 8, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    Aug 28, 2012
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    I have the first link, but not the second. I need to reread that second one at least twice. Some confusing things in there. I may have to go old school and print a hard copy to make some notes on.

    Tim
     
  3. Nov 9, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    Okay, I've read the second link a few times. There are some things I haven't seen before, and some inconsistent guidance:
    1. First guide says to get a "ring" from the donor engine. Later there is reference to a spark plug wire ring for holding the wires. Is this the same thing? If so, it doesn't seem critical, unless it is.
    2. Same guide says "The distributor cap firing order is not the same as the old 225 distributor." Huh?! The order remains 1-6-5-4-3-2, correct?
    3. All the guides recommend a smaller gap on the plugs than here. They recommend .040, .045, and "about .005 more than stock but it's not really needed." On here the recommendations have all been .060. Which is it?
    4. 2nd Guide mentions a secondary and primary (in that order) something. Says the secondary can be 180 out and out of sequence on the primary. I understand the rotor being 180 out (on terminal #1 but on exhaust stroke, not compression stroke). Only "sequence" I understand is the firing order = 1-6-5-4-3-2. Is that discussion about anything else?
    5. 2nd Guide infers "any terminal is good" for the #1 terminal, but then later discusses moving the #1 by 2 terminals, either way. Still later talks about #1 can be any of the pairs 1-2, 3-4, or 5-6. Even after a third read, I can't understand what this guy is trying to say. Should I just ignore this bit or is there something here I need to understand?
    6. The whole "recurving" discussion(s) are distracting. Also a bit confusing in that they discuss recurve kits. I get that a performance tune can make the engine run even better, but that should be a separate discussion, not mixed in with a simple HEI conversion discussion. Okay -- this is mainly a complaint.
    7. 3rd Guide has the 23 steps. This one made sense and it's the process I've been using.
    8. Notes at the end mentions verifying the odd fire distributor. I thought I had, but I wasn't looking at the "innards", just the inside of the cap and assumed the item description is correct. I need to take the distributor out and look inside.
    9. Notes say I need heat conducting grease "very important". How critical is that?
    10. Notes say "Step one is to adjust it to the least sensitive position, that simply entails turning the allen screw inside the snout fully counterclockwise till it stops." Huh? I haven't seen any allen screws.
    11. Notes say I need to install the little cam. What cam is this? I did not get any cam.
    My starting system is weak as the battery has run down a bit with all the cranking. Just to work on it I need to have my truck jumper the jeep. So troubleshooting this has become more than just a minor pain, it's a major pain as I maneuver vehicles about and get set up.

    I must say, for something touted as so easy, it's been challenging and very discouraging.

    Tim
     
  4. Nov 9, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    I think I’m making some progress.

    I verified my HEI is odd fire by looking at the “innards”. Yep, 3 groups of 2. I started over using the new install guides, using the third one as it was more clearly written. The steps are all the same as before, except I gapped the plugs at 0.040” (they were at 0.060” as recommended in a thread here). When inserting the distributor the rotor is aligned with terminal one and the timing mark is aligned to 0* (TDC).



    The timing is still off. It appears to be at ~25* BTDC when it should be at 4-8*. So I tried a couple of changes:
    1. Rotated the rotor 180* to see if I had the rotor in wrong. Nope, it was right. At 180* nothing happens.
    2. Rotated the rotor by one tooth in the gear, counterclockwise. The timing moved to roughly 45* BTDC. I’ve seen that before.
    My frustration level was up because I was tired and hangry, unable to get the lock bolt in for the distributor. I was able to recreate my original condition and rev the engine again. Engine is too warm to work on, so I’m taking a break for the night and having dinner.

    I think if I reinsert the distributor but rotate the rotor clockwise by 2 teeth from current position I may be able to get the timing at ~6* BTDC, which is where it should be. I’ll give that a try tomorrow.

    Tim
     
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  5. Nov 9, 2020
    CJMark

    CJMark Jeeper

    Spearfish, SD
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    Sounds like you’re making progress. Keep it simple and follow the 23 steps, it’s really not that complicated. It’s good that you validated that you have the right distributor (Suggested in posts 39 and 40).

    I’ve read the same about .060 gap, I gapped to .045 per 23 step process. Not sure why you choose .040. The engine will run at any one of those plug gaps.

    I can see where it would be frustrating when you spend cycles repeating the same process.

    1. Rotated the rotor 180* to see if I had the rotor in wrong. Nope, it was right. At 180* nothing happens.”
    There’s multiple ways to determine TDC on #1. Pick one you’re comfortable with. I stuck a compression gauge in the hole.

    Put a sharpe mark on base of distributor where #1 plug is, then when you stab distributor in, just make sure rotor pointing to sharpe mark.

    It’s good to step back and take a break, you’ll get it running. Think of how much you’ve learned and maybe share with the next person trying to do what you’re doing now.
    Mark
     
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  6. Nov 9, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

    Louisville, Ky
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    Before you took out your old distributor did you check timing and see where it was at?
     
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  7. Nov 9, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    No. This started because the old (original) distributor had come apart internally. I should have noted where the rotor was, but the timing was so far off the engine would not run. I did not trust anything about it.

    Tim
     
  8. Nov 23, 2020
    Big_Rob2020

    Big_Rob2020 Member

    New Braunfels, TX
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    Jul 29, 2020
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    any updates Tim? did you get it running right?
     
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  9. Nov 23, 2020
    V6CJ5

    V6CJ5 New Member

    Central Oregon
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    Dec 11, 2004
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    Yes inquiring minds want to know....
     
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  10. Nov 24, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

    Louisville, Ky
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    When I got my engine started and running, I had to set the timing about 30 degrees for it to run.

    I rebuilt a carburetor and that helped. Got timing to about 24 degrees. Took the carburetor back off and put a new float in it, because I did some stupid stuff to the one in it. Tightened some screws that were not as tight as they should have been. Found one bolt that attached the carburetor to the manifold, was not that tight and plugged up a hole on the side of the carburetor. This got timing down to 7-8 degrees.

    What you need to do is put distributor in and get it running then start looking for vacuum leaks, check carburetor etc. Doing this helped my problem. Still not done.
     
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  11. Nov 24, 2020
    Big_Rob2020

    Big_Rob2020 Member

    New Braunfels, TX
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    Yes, and when you check for vacuum leaks use any flammable aerosol (brake cleaner, ether, contact cleaner, etc) around the base of the carb and around the intake manifold to pin point the vacuum leak, the engines RPM will speed up when you find it. Cool old school hot rodder trick.
     
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  12. Nov 24, 2020
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    SILLY QUESTION, BUT I DIDN'T SEE IT MENTIONED. IS #1 PISTON ON COMPRESSION STRIOKE AT TDC??
     
  13. Nov 24, 2020
    CJMark

    CJMark Jeeper

    Spearfish, SD
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    Yes, compression. I put gauge in plug hole to validate on compression stroke.
     
  14. Nov 25, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    Back for an update. Work got in the way as well as other life events...

    BLUF: still not right. I’m beginning to think I have another issue influencing this.

    I tried a few different things. In short, I did a reset and with piston 1 at TDC on compression stroke (verified w both valves closed/cover off), inserted the distributor with rotor aligned to number 1 terminal, vac line plugged, all wired up I can start the engine and rev it but the idle is very rough with an occasional backfire and misfire. Timing appears to be 22-24* BTDC (possibly higher — mark is at vertical position on flywheel when piston 1 fires). This is my initial condition before I experiment. Plugs appear black telling me I have a a very rich mixture, BTW.

    180* out? — Rotate the rotor 180* to see if I got the piston on the exhaust stroke. Nope, won’t start or even make a noise.

    Sequence off? — One guide says could be off by one terminal. Shift plug wires by one, in both directions. Nothing. Got a really loud backfire, though.

    14 Teeth — The gear has 14 teeth. I pulled the distributor and rotated the rotor shaft one tooth. Consistently in one direction, re-installed and tried a start. 14 times. Only useful result was with timing mark at vertical (22-25*+) (initial conditions) or almost opposite (45-60*) BTDC. The engine starts, roughly, but I can get the rpm up and rev the engine. Will not idle.

    Vacuum — At initial conditions I decided to try the vacuum. I connected the hose, then tried to start. WTF?! Huge backfire and engine “feels” like spark is so advanced it’s pushing the piston against rotation. Cannot get past a few cylinders firing, never runs. This told me if I could get the timing to 6-8* BTDC, the vacuum advance would work to put the timing good for higher rpm, which seems to be good at 22-24* and is consistent with documentation.

    Had a friend come over who works on a couple of peer GM cars. He assumed the rotor had to point at cylinder 1, not terminal 1 (that is case on his 350 V8 installs) but a try w that didn’t work, no start, no noise.

    So where am I? Mechanically forcing the spark to retard to ~6-8* by installing the shaft one tooth counterclockwise doesn’t work. No spark and engine will not start. Installing so the shaft is aligned to terminal 1 equates to spark at 25*+ which is counter-intuitive (for myself anyway). Installing with ine tooth advanced clockwise advances the spark to 45-55*+ and that’s intuitive but not desired.

    Something else must be going on.
    What?
    • Mechanical — Some sort of misalignment? Cam? I’m unable to visualize what could be mechanically off that still allows me to consistently repeat initial conditions
    • Carburetor — My issue sounds similar to @Steve's 70-5 but my test of the vac line gives me pause. I’ll take a look for vac leaks first as I’m less successful with carbs than I am with distributors (yikes).
    • Other? I’m perplexed by the jumpiness of the spark — the timing is not stable but jumps around a few degrees before and after a central point.
    I do have a wicked knock at idle. Engine sounds more like a diesel at idle. I suspect a bearing but I don’t want tk be distracted by that until it’s running.

    Next opportunity for me to try something is Friday late.

    Ideas still welcome.

    Tim
     
  15. Nov 26, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    So - once you stab the Distributor - Start the motor - and see the timing is that far off, do you pull it to the 6-8* range like its supposed to be before reving the engine? If not, what's stopping it? The Vac Advance should be plugged for the initial timing to 6 - 8* range.

    Teeth do not matter - pointing to the number one post does and getting to the 6-8* timing for initial timing is important.
     
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  16. Nov 26, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    Vac advance is plugged at the carb.

    I start with the distributer midway in its range of rotation. It is limited by the BAT connection for retarding and the vac canister for advancing. If I rotate clockwise to retard the spark, it doesn’t seem to move perceptively closer. If I rotate to advance, it moves a little (maybe 5* more).

    My initial conditions are always pointing at number one post/terminal. Shifting by one tooth will retard (counterclockwise) or advance (clockwise) the spark by 1/14th of 360* — rotation is relative to the distributor body. That is what rotating the body does to retard or advance once installed. Frankly I’m grasping at straws. The rotor shaft and distributor can be anywhere so long as the spark occurs 6-8* BTDC on cylinder one. That normally means pointing at post one, but I’m not experiencing that on this engine.

    I do get best results pointing at post 1 (~25* BTDC), but I cannot appreciably adjust that down or up within the adjustment range available. Once I connect the vac all hell happens as the spark advances much too far.

    Tim
     
  17. Nov 26, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    I have never dealt with an oddire so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.
    You have been at this for a month and a half now. You have shown pictures of your distributor install where others have confirmed is correct as well as the procedure you are following.
    I believe it's time to look elsewhere and I would start with the distributor you have. The internal electronic pickup could be faulty for example. For approximately $100.00 at Rockauto, you can try a different distributor.
    This upgrade shouldn't take this long and be this difficult.
     
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  18. Nov 26, 2020
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Have you checked to make sure timing chain hasn’t jumped or extremely loose?
     
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  19. Nov 26, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I'm with Nick at this point. It all 'sounds right' but the timing is way off. I was thinking you had a 231 timing cover which can put you off 18*, but the pic looks like a 225 cover (molded in timing marks vs bolted on). You just don't seem to be lined up right internally.
     
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  20. Nov 27, 2020
    Greenshirt82

    Greenshirt82 The Old Girl - '69 CJ5

    Southern Maryland
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    I do feel like I’m confirming the definition of insanity. “Repeating the same steps, expecting a different outcome.”

    Tim
     
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