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Any one have a hot 225?

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Hellcat, Dec 17, 2002.

  1. Dec 17, 2002
    Hellcat

    Hellcat New Member

    Steubenville Ohio
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    18
    Since I have an extra 225 sitting in the garage, I figured I mite as well build it up. If it is worth it. I was thinking of boring it out .030 and putting a cam in it. Would it be worth ir or not? Would it kill my bottom end? I mostly do mud running when off road. All, and who makes headers for the Dauntless?
    Thanks,
    Chris
     
  2. Dec 17, 2002
    Shovelhead

    Shovelhead Heep driver

    San Diego
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2002
    Messages:
    37
    I have Hooker Headers on my 225. I don't know if they still make them. I think Novak has some :?: :mrgreen:
     
  3. Dec 17, 2002
    John A. Shows

    John A. Shows Comic Relief

    Mendenhall...
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2002
    Messages:
    938
    The title of this post is a good one but I'd like to add to it because I've wondered myself. Is there such a thing as a bad *** 225? I mean I'm sure you can bolt on minor power, and go into the engine and what not and get more, but the thing starts out with about 140 to 150 (I think). How much of an improvement over this could you possibly wind up with? and at what cost? (I know you can't answer that)

    One of the reasons I haven't aspired to go into "the little engine that could" is because I doubted that with even the most severe mods, I would wind up with more than a stock SB350. OK so you might wind up with more than a SB350, but if power is what you're looking for why would you prefer the V6?

    But... I'd love to be told I was way wrong, and that minor mods (provide a list) would make the Dauntless truly unable to be intimidated. (Def of Dauntless if you're wondering)
     
  4. Dec 17, 2002
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tulsa, OK
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,193
    - Power of a 350, weight of a V6 = advantage, Dauntless.
    - 'Cause everyone builds a V8
    - 'Cause you could just say "ah, just a little V6" before kicking butt.
     
  5. Dec 17, 2002
    53Flattie

    53Flattie Intigator

    Easley, SC
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    842
    I think Nickmill would be the resident expert in this area. I'm sure he'll chime in.
     
  6. Dec 17, 2002
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    12,529
    Until I broke a wrist pin I had a '67 225 V-6 engine dyno'd just shy of 550 hp in my race Jeep. That's no bull. It was built over 20 years ago and many of the parts, like the pistons and cam, have to be custom made now. It was running 11 1/2-1 compression with chev valved heads, custom roller rocker set up with individually adjustable valves, balanced, severely modified connecting rods, etc. etc. I didn't put it back together because pistons alone were going to be over $ 600 and have to be custom made. The heads had the valve guides re-angled to fit the larger valves in them (1.94 intake, 1.6 exhaust). This thing was unreal to drive, but had to run on custom mixed fuel. The intake was custom port matched to the heads, and had custom header's made. The mod list goes on and on and on. It's possible to do, but extremely expensive. For that reason alone I'm building a 4.3 now for my race Jeep. To duplicate the motor I had would probably cost about 8-10,000 dollars. There is an old saying that goes "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?" which pretty much sums it up. I run V-6's because the Off-road racing I do is broken down by wheel base and # of cylinders in the engine, not by cubic inch displacement. There are tons more people in the v-8 classes so I can afford to be more competitive and still win trophy's. Plus it's fun to see the look on the V-8 guys faces when I show them my time slip with quicker times than they have. :twisted: Nickmil
     
  7. Dec 17, 2002
    H8PAVMNT

    H8PAVMNT Rub his head for luck

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    I vote nickmil as our very own resident V6 GOD! I had no idea a V6 could be so strong. Thanks Nik
     
  8. Dec 17, 2002
    Randy

    Randy New Member

    East TX.
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2002
    Messages:
    1
    GM has got a lot of goodies for the Buick V6 Odd Fire, some of these might fit the 225 I don't Know. But I can dream. A friend of mine said I could bore my block enough to use stock 350 piston's. what a deal ! https://www.spoperformanceparts.com/
     
  9. Dec 17, 2002
    RebelGT

    RebelGT New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1
    if you really want to build up a buick v6, it would be VERY wise to upgrade to the later model blocks, they are much stronger, have better cooling passages and have more head options and all that other good stuff. You cann't swap on later model heads to the older block b/c of the water passage changes...
     
  10. Dec 17, 2002
    Hellcat

    Hellcat New Member

    Steubenville Ohio
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    18
    The reason that I want to build a V6 instead of putting in an 8 is because of everybody around my house has V-8s in there rigs. I want to be different! But, Nick, I am not going to go that insane. I just want to bore it .030 over put a cam in it, I think comp cams still makes em. And, maybe port and polish the heads, and get a valve job done. And, headers. Because I think if I where to do that, my V-6 in my jeep could kick the other guys asses in the mud. Where I would probably be light enough to kinda float instead of sinking straight off the bat. Does anyone make a 4 barrel intake for the 225? And the block that I am going to use is out of a 1966 or 67. Not sure. I will get the numbers. I will defently have to check with GM. Who makes the upgraded ingition for them too?
    Thanks,
    Chris
     
  11. Dec 17, 2002
    fatty

    fatty New Member

    Papillion, NE
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    32
    Offenhouser makes one for a 440 - 600 CFM carb. Here's the part # OFF-6035-DP (will not fit HEI) $197.95. I have this same intake on the motor I just pulled (had 60psi in #5 cylinder). The motor still ran like a champ.[/i]
     
  12. Dec 17, 2002
    1966cj5

    1966cj5 New Member

    Las Vegas Nevada...
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    13
    Ok Hellcat are you ready. :mrgreen:
    Cam=comp # 63-235-4 .454 lift 260 durarion = Rv cam
    Intake= Offenhauser# ofy-6035dp Alumn. 4bbl. dual plane.
    Carb. = Holley # hly-0-8007 390cfm 4 bbl. elect choke.
    Dist. = Checker auto #pa 6178123 HEI from a 76 Buick Apollo.
    These will set you back about $700-$800 :shock:
    SUMMIT RACING is my best friend. :p
    All these parts are for use at idle to about 3500 rpm.
    No problem spinning the new 32x11.50 BFG's (both of them) on dry pavement. :beer: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
     
  13. Dec 17, 2002
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,349
    Ok just to let you know what all is still available, all the major cam manufactures will still grind one off there old profiles of cams they made for these before or stock them ,Crane, Competition cams, Iskenderian, T/A Performance, Kenne bell,all of these companies still list cams for the odd fire v6, Weiend and Offenhauser still list intakes, Hedman and Doug Thorley, AA and Novak make headers, Mallory, Pertronics and several others do ignition setups, Hillborn still lists a mechanical fuel injection system that has stacks and is an awesome setup but very high maintenance. All of the odd fire parts can be put on an even fire block if you still want the oddfire rumble and crank. Porting and polishing heads and matching manifolds will make an incredible difference on any engine, so will CNC profiling the combustion chambers and ports. Rods off of an oddfire 231 are far stronger than the stock 225 rods, SPS grade 8 head studs and bolts thru out the engine will hold it together, a windage tray to keep the oil from creating drag on the crank and rods. T/A performance and Kenne bell still list roller rockers available and Manley and several others list S.S. valves for the motor. Building a 300 horsepower v6 should be a piece of cake. Just don't forget to balance, and be pickie and blueprint the assembly (check all tolerances closely).
     
    D1RTD0GG likes this.
  14. Dec 18, 2002
    Hellcat

    Hellcat New Member

    Steubenville Ohio
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    18
    Thanks Jeff and mike. Mike you think that this engine would put out that much Hp if I where to do it :?: That would be bad *** :twisted: I am going to call the machine shop today and see how much it will cost!Ok so far here is my list.
    Bore it .030 over
    Cam
    Hot Tank it
    Vavle Job
    Port and Polish
    Balance
    Blueprint
    Ignition
    4 barrel carb and intake
    Headers.
    Sound good or what? Advice any one?
    Chris
     
  15. Dec 18, 2002
    Hellcat

    Hellcat New Member

    Steubenville Ohio
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    18
    Got some prices for machine work. From one place.
    Bore: $130
    Valve Job: $75
    Hot Tank: $50
    Installing new cam bearings and soft plugs: $45+the cost.
    He has to get back to me about the balancing and blueprinting.So far I am up to $300. Does this sound fair? And, he said that I wouldnt need the heads ported and polished with what I am going to do with it. What do you guys think?
    Thanks,
    Chris
     
  16. Dec 18, 2002
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    12,529
    Sounds like you are going in the right direction. A friend of mine had one built about 8 years ago by Archie Summers (a local machine shop that builds lots of odd ball race motors) and his was pushing about 300- 350 hp and could still run on pump gas. Basically had all the mods that McRuff listed. It was ok on the trail but where it really shone was mud and sand cause it could rev 6-7,000 rpm all day long. Pertronics makes a good point to electronic conversion. I did it on the race Jeep and it made a big difference. MSD (Autotronics) makes an ignition box that makes a HUGE difference on the oddfire. I just sold the one I had. The key to building any performance engine is to match all the components together. Doesn't mean you need to buy them from the same manufacturer, but make sure they are designed to work in the parameters that you intend to use the motor. I've seen tons of motors that didn't perform to their potential because the builder put the wrong cam with wrong intake, or over or under carbed it, etc. etc. Make sure you use good quality components as well, Unless you don't care about longevity. I've seen lots of motors fail because someone will spend tons of money on machine work, polish work, pretty do-dads, and then buy the cheapest throw away pistions they can get, or not polish the crank properly, or take short cuts when cleaning the block. Remember, many manufacturers have different quality levels of components for different applications. For example, pistons for claimer motors in Stock Car racing. They are very light and inexpensive but don't hold up for the long term, and aren't supposed to. (A claimer motor is one that if a competitor thinks the competition is going too fast or has an unfair advantage, for a price set by the racing organization, he can "claim" or buy the motor, and the owner can't do anything about it. Under these circumstances, you want inexpensive parts). Don't forget things like new cam bearings, higher volume oil pump, new water pump, belts, hoses, possibility of needing a new timing cover (the oil pump housing is built into the timing cover and it's very common for these to be scarred or worn out), etc. My buddy spent about $5,000 on his motor and that was carry in. It can be done cheaper than that, IF you can do some of the work yourself. I love the Buick V-6's, but they are a bit expensive to build up. Another thing I just thought of, if you are building it for mud and sand and don't need the low end torque, get rid of the 60 whatever pound flywheel and get one from an oddfire 231 and have it balanced with the crank, rods, and balancer. It makes a huge difference as it will rev much quicker. Your low end torque for rock running or tight steep trails will suffer though. On my '59 I have a 1980 231 even fire with the stock dual jet carb (flows about 450 cfm) and recurved hei, a mild RV cam, headers, and a little port work. We chassis dyno'd it at 220 hp at the rear tires at about 3200 rpm, and the torque curve started about 1800 rpm (man I love the toys at work!). It works great in the mud and sand, works darn good on the trails, did pretty good in street and trail class racing, but sometimes in the rocks, I wish I had a little more torque. I built it for as much all around as possible, and it does what I need it to do faithfully, but sometimes I wish for just a bit more. Only thing is, If I start building for more in one area, then I lose in other areas. There is always a trade off somewhere, so weigh what your intended use is and then build accordingly. Well, I think I've been long-winded enough. Hope it helps some. Nickmil. :stout:
     
  17. Dec 18, 2002
    Hellcat

    Hellcat New Member

    Steubenville Ohio
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Messages:
    18
    Thanks nic. I am basically building this for street trail and mud useage. I have never seen a rock on any of the trails so far. But, since you are the v-6 god, how much hp do you think this motor will turn? Yes, I do want reiability. Any more advice? And trust me, you are not long winded.
    Chris
     
  18. Dec 18, 2002
    neverhit

    neverhit New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    8
    fuel pumps

    What type of fuel pumps do you guys use with your engines? I bought a 225 that had a cam operated pump, but was wondering if something else would be better. The cam had a lot of wear on it.
     
  19. Dec 18, 2002
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tulsa, OK
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    6,193
    Electric pump.

    It's my audible fuel gauge - if it starts to chatter, I need to look for gas.
     
  20. Dec 18, 2002
    H8PAVMNT

    H8PAVMNT Rub his head for luck

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    229
    Mine chatters all the time. Louder when I get low. Is this the case w/ you Mike?

    Fuel guage helps too :mrgreen:
     
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