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Dauntless V6 Mini Starter

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Norcal69, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Sep 11, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
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    I posted briefly about this in my exhaust thread.
    This planetary gear starter is a direct replacement for your big old Delco direct drive starter.
    Generically known a a PG260, this starter is much smaller, spins faster and draws less amps.
    This starter came stock on a 93-95 GM LT1 engines and V8 powered boats with 153 tooth flywheels and straight starter mounting pattern bolts.
    You can purchase a starter for a 1994 Chevy Camaro with a 5.7 if you do not need a "R" resistor terminal.
    If you need the "R" terminal, Marine applications have both "I" and "R" terminals.
    AC Delco P/N 323-677
    Auto Zone P/N for the starter is 3631N-PG
    I am using a Powermaster 9202 that has "I" and "R" terminals. I chose this starter because it has metal gears in the event that I need to start in gear while offroad.

    It is very critical that you use the correct bolts!!! They align the starter. Most starters will come with bolts. If not you will need to source bolts for the Camaro application shown above.

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    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  2. Sep 11, 2021
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sheboygan
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    great info, thanks for sharing!
     
  3. Sep 11, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Appreciate that tidbit!
     
  4. Sep 11, 2021
    givemethewillys

    givemethewillys Been here since sparky ran it. 2022 Sponsor

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    This made my day!!!
     
  5. Sep 11, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    X2
     
  6. Sep 11, 2021
    Siskiwit

    Siskiwit Member

    Northern Wisconsin
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    The info is going into the fie. Thanks
     
  7. Sep 12, 2021
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    That is cool.

    Thank you...
     
  8. Sep 12, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The size comparison is amazing. I'm surprised that the new starter is direct drive too... technology :cool:

    Making a crude measurement from the screen, the new starter motor has about 1/3 the volume of the old. What new technology allows this much of a change? Materials? Electromagnetic design (FEA)? A combination of improvements? Is it still a field coil design (ie not a permanent magnet motor?)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  9. Sep 12, 2021
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    We just installed one on our shop truck with a Ford 390. Those little starters are amazing.
     
  10. Sep 12, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    It’s a permanent magnet with a planetary gear reduction.
     
  11. Sep 12, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Sorry to fixate on the technology rather than the Jeep-ness. Interesting. I suspected it might have permanent magnets. A field coil and iron would have been the economical choice in the day. Magnet technology gave us portable battery-powered tools too. I did not think of planetary reduction. Spins faster means more power. Makes sense considering the longer housing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
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  12. Sep 12, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    No problem! The technology is what makes these starters so great.
     
  13. Sep 12, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I should add…..
    This is the same basic starter that is used on millions of 96 and newer GM cars and trucks. The only difference is this starter uses the straight up mounting holes, whereas the GM trucks use staggered mounting holes.
     
  14. Sep 12, 2021
    givemethewillys

    givemethewillys Been here since sparky ran it. 2022 Sponsor

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    Can you elaborate on why one would need "i" and "r" terminals?
     
  15. Sep 12, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    The "I" terminal is the same as the "S" terminal on an old style starter. The "I" or "S" receives the signal from your ignition switch and tells the starter bendix to come out to the flywheel.
    The "R" terminal sends voltage to the ignition when the key is in the cranking position. This is a momentary 12V worth of power to get the engine running.
    I am not familiar with the stock jeep wiring setup and do not know if you need both terminals. You can use a starter with out an "I" or "S" terminal, but you will need to put a diode in the ignition power feed so that once the ignition is running it will not back feed to the starter. My harness is aftermarket, but I needed the "R" terminal for the engine cranking signal for fuel injection.
    I hope this isn't too confusing...... I'm sure Tim could explain it much better. :rofl:
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  16. Sep 12, 2021
    givemethewillys

    givemethewillys Been here since sparky ran it. 2022 Sponsor

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    That was helpful, thank you. My harness is an ez-wire, and I didn't wire it up myself, so honestly I haven't the foggiest what it has, or what it needs lol!
     
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  17. Sep 12, 2021
    garage gnome

    garage gnome ECJ5 welder

    Western MA
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    I will be getting this for snowshoe. The starter in it doesn't sound great.
     
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  18. Sep 13, 2021
    Speedybon

    Speedybon Speedybon & Daisy

    Arroyo Grande...
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    So the gears match and have no shims. So having HEI I don't need the Ignition terminal so a 96 Camaro 5,7 will work. About how much and PN for the bolts. That was brave trying that upgrade how did you know it would work? Delco P/N 323-677 I just google that PN and your post comes up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  19. Sep 13, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    These stock replacements have both ignition terminals.
    AC DELCO: 323-677
    API MARINE: 10096
    ARCO MARINE: 30460

    These stock replacements only have one ignition terminal.
    REMY 96231
    REMY 25480 Reman Unit
    Napa 4N5115
    Oreilly R613329A comes with correct bolts.

    If you are looking for an upgraded starter with metal gears then the Powermaster 9202 has both ignition terminals and comes with the correct bolts.

    Starter bolts
    These should work. The starter that I purchased came with the correct bolts.
    The starter motor holes are 10MM.... standard GM engine block threads are 3/8-16. The bolts are stepped to accommodate the starter.
    GM 14097278 Long bolt
    GM 14097279 Short bolt
    The starter that I purchased came with bolts. I have not verified that the above number works with these starters, I simply crossed P/N's.
    This site claims to offer both bolts as a kit. I have not verified the fit but it lists them as replacing the GM factory P/N's.
    MCR - Conversion Bolt Set to Replace 14037733 12338064
     
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  20. Sep 13, 2021
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    As Norcal stated magnets, those things just get stronger & stronger.

    Consider- Back in the beginning days of radio the first sets came with earphones as the magnets of the time, basically ferrite, didn't have the field strength to drive a speaker.

    Then someone realized that you could build a speaker with an electromagnet , look in the back of a radio from the 30's & you'll see a whopping big coiled dinkus on the back of the speaker with wire running into it. They worked well, would fill a room with sound no problem but ate electricity & got hot leading to burnt out coils.

    WW2 bought alnico magnets that would drive a speaker up to 20 watts or so.

    In the 70's the big news was ceramic- they were big- as big as the electromagnets from the 30's, & they were ugly but they got speakers into the 100+ watt range.

    Neither the alnico or ceramic had the field strength to work in something like a stater motor though but now there's neodymium which most certainly does.


    Not sure what's coming next but wouldn't it be neat to have an MRI machine that doesn't need to be hooked p to a liquid helium supply? :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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