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Do you agree on my thoughts? Starting a Build...

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Jobhater, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. Feb 20, 2010
    Jobhater

    Jobhater A man without a Jeep

    Colorado Springs, CO
    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    108
    I'm starting up a 1963 CJ-6 build now. (The frame is off, and about to be sandblasted, then boxed, and POR-15ed.) My plans for the Willys is to run 35" or 36" tires on it and do some mild rock climbing, but still be road friendly. I need to be able to hit 65-70mph. I'm curious on your thoughts on the engine/transmission/transfer case. (I want to have fuel injection because of extreme altitude changes here in Colorado.)

    I'm starting to look for a donor early CJ to use for the drivetrain. That way I can just "easily" swap from one jeep into the other. I'm still up in the air on going with an automatic or standard transmission.

    Engine: Right now, I'm leaning towards a 4.3L Vortec engine with the TBI. Would a 350 V8 be better with the rock crawling? Unfortunately, I know that it would take some modification of the firewall for the 350.

    Transmission: Yeah, I don't know yet. I figured I would run what the donor jeep has, but would eventually look for a NV4500(?) if I go standard. I have no clue what to get if I go automatic. (I'm somewhat new to driving standard, but have hit the trails in my current '76 CJ5 standard.)

    Transfer Case: I'd probably look at putting a twin stick Dana 300 in, but currently have a twin stick Dana 20 upgraded to the 2.46 ready to go. Do you suggest something different?

    I have done a lot of research online. I'm just asking this question for some verification. What would you do if you had a CJ6?
     
  2. Feb 20, 2010
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
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    2,706
    The V-6 will be fine. Remember these Jeeps came with ~70HP from the factory and the Vortec 4.3 is rated at 220ft/lbs torque and 240HP or there abouts IE lots of power

    The NV4500 I would think would be long but should fit.

    Are you sure about the Dana 20? it should be a Dana 18. If the driveshaft is centered then it is a 20, if it is offset to the passenger side it is an 18, they use very similar cases. The 300 would work but will need an adapter unless you find an uber rare texas pattern one out of a Scout ? I can't remember which one.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  3. Feb 20, 2010
    bobracing

    bobracing web wheeler

    Richland, WA
    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2007
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    215
    Can be done and with the extra length of the CJ-6 lots can be done.

    4.3 is an great engine for Jeeps and fit well in the short noses. If you want simple go with a TBI (~160hp) or get wild with the Vortec (~200hp).
    V-8 are over rated, sand and mud, no such thing as to much HP but for general use the V-6 will do everything you ask.

    Wouldn't run anything out of a Jeep unless it's the wide ratio T-18 (~6:1) first gear. My personal preference is Autos and the 700r4 with a low first gear and OD will fit in a CJ-6 nicely, expecially with the V-6.

    I'd try for the D300 with the 700r4. This will be a strong case with a nice 2.6:1 low range, works well all around. If you fell the need to get more radical, the 4:1 kit out there or you need more hwy speed, run a little higher gear in the diffs and use the 4:1 to get the crawl ratio back down.
    If you want to stick with the D18 case (offset) a TH350 can have 700r4 low gear installed and the Warn OD can be used too.

    While you are looking, start looking at what type of axles you want too use too. Running 35" tires and rockcrawling, a 44 is probably the smallest housing you want to use. A 44 will require mods or a custom housing to use under the front, rear, some came from the factory but to look into this.
    Also gears for the axles, what type of rpm are you comfortable with running down the hwy, mpg a concern?
     
  4. Feb 20, 2010
    Jobhater

    Jobhater A man without a Jeep

    Colorado Springs, CO
    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    108
    Thanks for your input regarding the transmissions and transfer cases (& vortec)! You have helped a lot. I have a T18 (long input shaft) that I can use, if needed...although I know a short input shaft would be better. I am planning on moving the seat back a little to fit my 6'3" body in, though.

    As far as the transfer case, it is a Dana 20 that I have. It was upgraded to a twin stick 2.46:1 using Bronco parts. And, as you will see below, I don't want to run a Spicer 18 because the axles will likely have a center pumpkin in the rear. Dana 300 seems to be the best option, though. And, you were correct about the texas pattern on the Scout. I believe they were only found on the 1980 Scouts (but may have been partially on another year.)

    I'm going to outboard the springs and switch over to YJ springs at the same time. I'll probably go with the Rubicon Express 4.5" YJ lift and perhaps a 1" body lift. For the time being, I have a pair of '85 CJ7 axles (wide width w/ locker) that I will throw on the CJ6 until I can get a pair that would support the larger tires. I have a spare set of 33" Super Swampers that I will use until I get those better axles and larger tires. This would be the same setup that I am running on my '76 CJ5 (Dana 30/AMC 20 w/ 33" tires), so it should work out fine. I'm hoping that the donor jeep will have upgraded axles that will work well with the larger tires.

    Thanks for your input!
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2010
  5. Feb 20, 2010
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
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    12,529
    The biggest issue I see here is switching back and forth. Any time you do that you will have to make changes, sometimes major ones. Figure out what you want to do, develop a plan, and stick with it as much as possible. Case in point, I keep changing my plans on my CJ-6 and that's why it has been a 13 year project and still not real close to being done.

    I have a CJ-6 on 36" swamper radials, TBI 350, NV-4500, dana 300 transfer case, pair of Scout 2 width dana 44's (not stock scout however), stretched to 106" wheel base. Now I'm swapping out the 44's for custom Dana 60's:rofl:.

    If you want some pics to give you ideas I can probably get some tomorrow.
     
  6. Feb 20, 2010
    Jobhater

    Jobhater A man without a Jeep

    Colorado Springs, CO
    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    108
    I'd love to see some pictures of your jeep! What do you think of the 350?

    The swapping would only depend on funds. If I am out of funds, then I will end up using the axles and tires I already have. Again, I'm sincerely hoping that the donor jeep I end up buying will have some decent axles. (Which is why I brought up this thread...I know someone selling a CJ2A with the 350, T18, Dana 20, Dana 44/Chevy 14bolt, 38" tires. I wanted verification that I should pass up that jeep (since its a little out of my budget).
     
  7. Feb 21, 2010
    cj6/442

    cj6/442 Sponsor

    Fallbrook, Calif
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2008
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    2,734
    The 300 would work but will need an adapter unless you find an uber rare texas pattern one out of a Scout ? I can't remember which one.

    I think it's a 79 Scout , it definately is the one with square headlights.I run one.
     
  8. Feb 21, 2010
    EricM

    EricM Active Member

    Southern California
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2007
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    1,019
    Dude, I would go butter up Warloch if I live in Colorado Springs. I think he is a wealth of information.
     
  9. Feb 21, 2010
    mb82

    mb82 I feel great!

    Charlottesville Va
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
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    2,706
    You all would not believe that the local international dealership a few years ago scrapped 7 of these T-cases. My neighbor works there and let me know after the fact. I wish I had been able to get one or two of them.
     
  10. Feb 21, 2010
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
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    23,596
    Re the NV4500, you better have deep pockets if you choose to go that way.

    What's your budget? if you go less exotic with the drivetrain, there are a few junkyard combos that will work well in a CJ-6. If you choose the TH400 instead of the 700R4, there were many Jeeps that came with this transmission from the factory. It can be adapted to BOP or AMC patterns with junkyard parts. Substitute a Chevy case and it will bolt up to the SBC pattern.

    Another possibility is a 999 or 727 from a later Jeep. These can be mated to an AMC engine, or to Mopar engines with a case change. They have a NP pattern, and can be used either drivers or passenger drop with the right choice of transfer case. D300 or NP208 or NP241 are all possible transfer cases here.

    IMO too much optimization at this stage will lead to paralysis and delay your project. Decide broadly what you want (Budget? Time to completion? Automatic or manual? Specific engine? Drivers or passenger drop? Axles?) then start lining up your components.
     
  11. Feb 21, 2010
    Dummy

    Dummy I kick hippies

    Escondido, CA
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Messages:
    646
    Regarding the T-cases, if you've already got the D20 with Bronco gears and a twin-stick it doesn't make a ton of sense to look for a D300. Upgrade the rear output to a 32-spline from Advance Adapters and call it done. I had a ton of hardcore wheeling on my Spicer 18 with a 260hp V-6 and 35s before I swapped it out for a D300. The front output shaft will be fine. Only reason I swapped was 'cause I wanted the aftermarket 32-spline F&R outputs on the D300 for gonzo throttle attacks.

    Tranny? I'd say go T-18 except that you want to run 65-70mph. That sort of puts you into an Overdrive 'cause to make a V-6 livable with 35s or 36s you'll need some deep axle gears. Why not buck convention and look for a Jeep AX-15 or NV3550 from a TJ or YJ? Either can be mated to a Chevy engine and a D20 T-case and have a decent(ish) First gear and Overdrive. The NV4500 is just stupid-overkill unless you're going big on the tires and/or power. You're kinda doing neither. If you go auto, have a TH700R4 overbuilt and run a huge cooler with a thermostatically-controlled electric fan.

    Axles? How wide? A Ford 9-inch from a fullsize Bronco/F-150 will match up nicely to a Wagoneer front axle. Upgrade the rear shafts to 31-spline alloy pieces for a couple hundred bucks and load the centersection with a spool and some 5.43 gears. Cheap, easy, and strong. Up front you can load up a Waggy D44 axle with some 5.38 gears and alloy shafts. Swap the spindles to early GM small-bearing pieces and you can run Ford 5x5.5 hubs and rotors to get the wheel bolt patterns to match.

    Engine? Taster's choice, really. SBC opens up a whole can of fitment issues but none are insurmountable. A TBI 350 is dead-nutz easy to wire and fire, but a TPI 305 from a Camaro will offer the similar horsepower with crazy fuel economy on the road and a nice mid-range punch. On the plus side, you could buy the TPI Camaro for a couple hundy and get the engine, auto tranny, wiring, and fuel pump stuff all from the donor. Yank the power steering box and other assorted gizmos while you're at it. I think at your elevations you'll want a bit more power than a TBI 4.3L offers. The Vortec 4.3L will be just nearly adequate. You lose a lot upwards of 10K ft. elevation.
     
  12. Feb 21, 2010
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Mar 4, 2003
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    The plan for the 6 we are going to do is FI V6 (225), SM465, D18(OD), D30 F Disc OX, D 44 R Drum OX, 4.88s. We only go to 33's on tire size, but to go bigger I think you would need the D44 F and R.
     
  13. Feb 23, 2010
    Fisherman

    Fisherman Member

    Snohomish Washington
    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    64
    Sounds like your getting close to finalizing your plan. I have mine and hope to stick with it. Nicely built 225, sm420, dana 18 tera 3.15 low gears, saturn overdrive, twin sticked. For axles I have rear passenger side offset dana 44 and front matching dana 44 from a 76 wagoneer. I am outboarding the springs/springover. I built my own 7 leaf packs with two sets of wrangler leafs. I'm still working on the frame but have everything else pretty much ready to bolt in. I'll probably keep my rochester and add propane for the steep stuff. I'll see what tires will fit nicely and decide on gears at the end. I have 4.56, 4.10 and 4.88 ring and pinion sets, no lockers yet. Just scored a warn 8724 if that is correct. Post some pics soon. I'll have some to post when the frame gets a little prettier.
     
  14. Mar 17, 2010
    Jobhater

    Jobhater A man without a Jeep

    Colorado Springs, CO
    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
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    108
    I just picked up a '94 4.3L Vortec from a Blazer last night. Hopefully it will work out well for me.

    I need to order some engine mounts for it now. Any recommendations? I know that Novak sells some. Are there any others out there? I think I might look into the bolt in/weld on type so that I can bolt in until I learn how to weld good enough to weld them in.
     
  15. Mar 17, 2010
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
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    5,466
    I used the Novak ones on the Red Flattie - really like them ('course they are the Buick ones - I think the Chevy are the same). If needed, let me know and I can help you burn them in. I also have a rolling engine hoist you can barrow if you need to (it was back behind the Red Flattie when you were at the shop).
     
  16. Mar 17, 2010
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Sep 17, 2009
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    I know my thoughts on V8's runs contrary to many folks on this forum, but long stroke sbc's make VERY good CJ engines. I think the 381 in my 3B is in its 26th year now, has a lot of miles on it, and probably needs some attention. It has never lacked for power and since it got injected, has had flawless off road performance. You get a pretty amazingly flat torque curve out of these things if you put the right cam in them and it is there right off-idle. The gas mileage is right in there with the V6's-I usually get 17-18 on the road. And if you use one of the small base distributors, the firewall can remain stock.

    My choice would be a 383 sbc, sm465, and the existing D20. With the bigger cubes and the 465, you could even use 3.73 axle gears and still have a very good crawler.
     
  17. Mar 17, 2010
    Jobhater

    Jobhater A man without a Jeep

    Colorado Springs, CO
    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
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    108
    Thanks Chuck. My neighbor has a hoist I can borrow. I just need to strongarm it into the garage from my backyard. I'll let you know if I need some help welding them. I may. I'll go ahead and order some mounts within the next few days.

    I welcome any other ideas on other people's thoughts for tranny/transer case. Thanks!
     
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