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input shaft

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by jeeptwo, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. Apr 30, 2013
    jeeptwo

    jeeptwo New Member

    tampa fl
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    anyone know of anyone that can cut and reweld a input shaft or respline a shaft
     
  2. Apr 30, 2013
    Twin2

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    most machine shops could shorten a input shaft .not a engine shop . but because it is a harden shaft , they would have grind it .re-spline . and that would be costly . so a little more information is need here . what transmission and what are you trying to fit it into
     
  3. Apr 30, 2013
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    I just checked into this recently myself.
    For my particular needs I want a shortened 1-1/8" diameter maindrive for a T98.
    I'm using a Jeep T18/T98 transmission case that's modified to directly fit BOP bellhousing.

    If you decide to use the cut and weld method I firmly suggest it be welded with TIG.
    Tig welds with correct filler are very strong and yes they will pull a lot when cooling down.
    So the modified maindrive will need to be straightened afterwords.
    Weld out near to the splines so the gear is not heated up.
    And weld together very slowly since Tig can get very hot !
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  4. Apr 30, 2013
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    :)Always and interesting question and problem......................

    First off all gears are normally either heat treated or carburized and hardened. Carburizing would be the norm for gears which diffuses extra carbon into the surface steel so it will harden and accept a shock load without chipping or breaking.........but in most cases the shaft diameter at the clutch spline is larger ( see photo) than the balance of the shaft which would do you no good if you were trying to shorten the shaft since there would be no available material left to machine.

    Welding I believe is another dead end street as again the high carbon hardened surface would first have to be removed , a butt weld would never hold unless there was some form of key machined into the ID and OD of the now separated parts and then pressed together prior to welding to keep the two parts straight. A process of pre & post heat would also need to be employed to minimize any hydrogen embrittlement, notwithstanding not knowing what the base metal is to get a suitable filler rod.........

    I say you look for an easier way to solve your input shaft length problem.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. May 1, 2013
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Yes, tell us more.
     
  6. May 1, 2013
    kamel

    kamel Senior Curmudgeon

    Erlanger, Kentucky
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    It's likely the t98a / f134 problem.

    The maindrive gear mod solution isn't going to do it for you. If you can't find a t98a maindrive or donor transmission then you can't get there from here.

    So.... and I looked into this a while back and while I didn't pursue it at the time, it looked like it could be a viable approach.

    Take the Zen approach -- it doesn't matter if the river is flowing under the bridge or the bridge is flowing over the river.

    The f-134 really doesn't "care" what main drive it powers, just as long as it connects to the clutch disc on the flywheel... Therefore, why not match a clutch to the maindrive you have (or can get). It's been around five years, and as I recall, I found a Ford clutch that looked like it would fit on the maindrive that I had and also fit on the flywheel. It'll be in the LUK book if you can borrow one.

    You may have to drill and tap the flywheel, and the transmission might sit further back than you want, but that can be "corrected" by forming the shift lever. The pilot bearing may have to be reamed out a little. You will have to monkey around with the transfer case shifting mechanism, and a myriad of other creative custom adjustments...

    If it was me doing this job, I'd re-install the three speed, drive the jeep to iron out any other problems and bide my time. T98a's are not common, but they come up for sale often enough such that saving your money and biding your time will pay off eventually. Be prepared to buy the whole jeep in order to get one.. Every t-98a that I've purchased has been from a 'distressed' jeep except for one.

    I picked up one mounted in a scrap frame in January that was locked up -- so they are available.

    The t98a is great for work when coupled with the 5.38 gears, but if one isn't going to do hard work with it a t98a isn't all that practical. That had to be common knowledge back in the day, 'cause they didn't sell too many of 'em.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  7. May 1, 2013
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Not cheap nor speedy, but these guys can just about make/modify anything-stuff that will stand up to serious hp. Cost effective in this case? Probably not.

    http://www.libertysgears.com/index.htm
     
  8. May 1, 2013
    jeeptwo

    jeeptwo New Member

    tampa fl
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    the shaft is for a t98 17 tooth main 15/16 shaft jeep used behind the f134
     
  9. May 1, 2013
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    jeeptwo...
    What's the diameter and the OAL length of the T98 maindrive shaft that you already have.
    The one that you plan to resize ?
     
  10. May 2, 2013
    jeeptwo

    jeeptwo New Member

    tampa fl
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    they are about 17" long 1 1/8 10 spline t18 in j10/20 truck
     
  11. May 2, 2013
    kamel

    kamel Senior Curmudgeon

    Erlanger, Kentucky
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    you can get a shorter mdg that was originally made to go in the older t18's and it will fit perfectly into a t98a. It will require different roller bearings than the t98. Advance adaptors has a kit with everything you'd need to do that swap. Using that logic, ANY older style t18 MDG will swap in nicely and neatly into the t98a. So don't limit your search to t98a mdgs only. Just be sure that the MDG is for the older t18 (reverse to the right and UP) configuration. The newer t18's have reverse to the right and DOWN and won't work at all.

    Now, the AA kit configuration will end up being a little too short given the adapters, etc that were stock, however if you could come up with a way to reduce or eliminate the adaptor it might slide in there just right. Remember the Zen riddle about the river and the bridge in and earlier post on this topic -- taking out a 1 inch adapter effectively makes the MDG one inch longer.

    Now, you'd have to use a different clutch disk, but you might be able to get away with using a jeep clutch with that disk.

    If you have considered cutting and welding a MDG, then doing some welding on the bell housing to eliminate the adaptor would be several orders of magnitude less risky and more workable.

    I believe there is a workable solution in doing the above, but it involved too many "ifs" for me which is why I abandoned it and searched out t98a's in cj5's. I figured that once I solved the modification problem I would have spent more $$ than I would otherwise spend on buying the original t98a equipment.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  12. May 2, 2013
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    So it seems your actually trying to fit a T18 onto the Hurricane.
    That's a whole different concept that likely has never been done before.
    I believe it could be done yet I expect it to be fully impracticle.

    For one thing can't simply swap maindrives between a T18 and a T98.
    There are many subtle internal differences.
    This means it will do you no good to find a short 15/16" diameter T98 maindrive alone.
    It simply will not fit the T18 without turning the whole T18 case into a T98.
    Also it will be impracticle to grind your "J" series truck maindrive down to the desired 15/16" diameter.
    And swapping parts between Ford, Jeep and IH can become a real challange.

    Bottom line is that it can be done yet the only known practicle way to put a Borg Warner truck type four speed onto a Hurricane is via the Jeep T98 that was intended for that specific purpose.
    That said you might still want to try Tig welding a 15/16" shaft onto your T18 maindrive gear using high nickle rod.

    See: http://www.film.queensu.ca/CJ3B/Tech/T98A.html
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2013
  13. May 2, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    So, just for clarification, you want to modify a T-18 input to match an F-Head T-98? Is the plan to use this in a T-18 to mate it to an F-Head or to use the modified input in a T-98?
    I think some clarification/information is in order here.


    Sent from my iPhone
     
  14. May 3, 2013
    jeeptwo

    jeeptwo New Member

    tampa fl
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    ok lets start over i need the input shaft that was used in the t98 behind the f134 this shaft will fit both the t98 and t18. i have the long shafts . that are about 17" long out of j20/10 trucks they are 1 1/8 dia 10 spline just to long need to shorten. the shaft out of the t98 behind the f134 is 15/16 10 spline i can use this shaft if i can find them.
     
  15. May 3, 2013
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Ok, not knowing if the T-98 shaft is compatible with the T-18 or vice-versa...

    How long a shaft do you need? There were lots of different shaft lengths for the wide-ratio T-18. The shortest was the Ford input, at about 6". The Jeep input used with 258 J-trucks and Wagons is about 7" in length. There are also IHC applications, which would be cheap if you find them, but should be very scarce.

    Maybe it would be easier to make a bellhousing or plate adapter that will give you the needed depth, rather than try to change the input shaft. In that case, all you need is a stickout that's longer than the depth of your bell.

    As mentioned, the T-98 for the F134 is still sought after, and it's unlikely you will find the input shaft separated from its transmission. Removing the input makes the rest of the transmission scrap... If you want a T-98 behind a F134, look for the complete setup. Functionally the T-98 and T-18 are close to identical, so there's not much motivation to wreck a T-98 to build up a T-18.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  16. May 3, 2013
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    The T98 maindrive gear (AKA input shaft) definately will not fit the T18 mainshaft.
    Among many other concerns the mainshaft pilots are way different between T98 and T18.
     
  17. May 3, 2013
    kamel

    kamel Senior Curmudgeon

    Erlanger, Kentucky
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    I have a t-18 that has a f-134 t98a mdg fitted into it in my shop. I have not installed the transmission anywhere yet but I suppose I could. I had a spare t98a mdg in the shop for 10 or so years and decided to try to put it in the t-18.

    Right now I have an assembly problem with that trans, but it is not related to the MDG, it is related to the rear of the main shaft.
    It is just that I have a low priority on that work and much higher priority on other things.

    the older t18 mdg's will swap in -- AA has kits to do this. They have different roller bearings and a different number of roller bearings depending on whether the t18 mdg goes into a t98 or t18.

    Newer t18 mdg's have the gears cut in the opposite direction from the older t18's and therefore are off limits for this kind of modification.

    going the other way - t98a into t18 required a little 'finessing' and a very capable machinist who likes to do that kind of work.
     
  18. May 3, 2013
    jeeptwo

    jeeptwo New Member

    tampa fl
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    you are right the main shaft is a different size. i make a bronze bushing for the input did away with the roller brgs. also the old t18 is the one i use.i have built about a dozen of these in the last 30 years. the first one is in my jeep for 33 years.building a trans for a friend now that is why i need this shaft.fyi this for a jeep with a 283 chev
     
  19. May 3, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Not true. Don't know where that came from but absolutely not true.
     
  20. May 3, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    This kind of information up front would have saved tons of time. The path of least resistance to a GM engine is to use the Ford main drive gear (input). It's the correct length for a GM stock bellhousing or scattershield with no adapters. Machine the pilot bushing for the Ford pilot, the front bearing retainer to match gm, and a few other things and it fits very nice. Built at least 100 of them over the years.
     
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