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Manual Steering Box Woes - Advice Please

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Jeepman31, May 26, 2017.

  1. May 26, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Jan 19, 2017
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    Hello Guys,

    The stock manual steering box on my 1970 CJ5 Dauntless has started gushing and leaking like crazy (Pitman arm seal?) Also the steering is as sloppy as could be - and I've zeroed down most of the slop is coming from the steering box.

    Is there any where to source a quality rebuilt unit? Or can anyone please suggest where to purchase a rebuild kit for a reasonable price?

    I'd like to keep this Jeep as original as possible, and am not skilled enough to weld on a steering conversion or something like that.

    Any tips would be appreciated so I can get this Jeep on the road again.
     
  2. May 26, 2017
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    First off watch this-

    Moses Ludel's 4WD Mechanix Magazine - Rebuilding the Ross TL Steering Gear - Moses Ludel's 4WD Mechanix Magazine, HD Video Network and Forums

    Second do a search here for "death wobble", do a thorough reading of the results.

    You'll need to go through the whole system, a little slop in one spot + a lot of slop at the wheel, even if it's mainly the box other sources will have a big impact.

    Rebuild parts are available from sources such as Walcks's-

    Willys Jeep Parts, Restoration & Wiring - Walck's 4 Wheel Drive Steering Group

    Be warned though that many new parts are of poor quality.

    H.

     
  3. May 26, 2017
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    I rebuilt my Ross box a few years ago, created this thread. It is nothing compared to Mr Ludel's video, by it shows that it is not too difficult. Unfortunately some of pictures have been erased from photo bucket, but some are still there.

    ross steering repair in 71 cj5 V6
     
  4. May 27, 2017
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    It sound like your sector bushings have worn out and need replacing. When ordering parts, keep in mind the V6 uses a different (larger) diameter shaft than the 4 cyl version (except military).
    When the bushings wear past a certain degree, the oil seal cannot keep the oil in and it starts leaking.
    -Donny
     
  5. May 27, 2017
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
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    I rebuilt mine recently using parts from Walcks. NOS parts are better, but Carl Walck seems to at least try to carry the best reproduction parts.

    My suggestion for step one is to at least remove it to see what you are dealing with. You can always post pics/questions here and people will walk you through it.

    The challenging steps from my experience are as follows:

    1. Pulling the pitman arm off the sector shaft. Mine was on there good. Local part store may loan a puller, but it is narrower than most, so standard pullers may not work. Local auto repair may also pull it for you.

    2. Pressing the sector shaft bushings in and out. They are thin, so you really need something the right size to press them out. I ended up using a Spicer U-joint cup from one of my axles. Again, local machine shop could likely help you here.

    3. Horn tube and plate. Likely source of leaks as it is just a press fit with no seal. My tube also was a bit loose in the plate, so I tapped a tapered punch in the tube hole to expand the tube and tighten the fit between tube and plate, then added a small bead of gasket maker (Permatex Right Stuff) for extra measure. I also flattened the plate a bit and that improved the press fit in the housing. Also added gasket maker bead here as well.

    4. Sector shaft and tapered studs. Tough to find for the v6 models, but Kaiser Willys does have them for $280. Another option is to just turn or replace the sector studs depending on how badly yours are worn. See my build thread here regarding this step...

    Tim E's 68 Cj5 Build

    Not sure what part of Colorado you are in, but I am coming out there west of CO Springs mid June and would be glad to take a look at it with you and/or help with whatever steps you need. Just let me know.

    Tim
     
  6. May 27, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Thanks everyone for all of the great suggestions so far.

    I got the darn thing pulled out today. Things really don't look as bad as I expected. There is only a tiny bit of wear on the sector shaft tapered studs. I think I can just polish and smooth them out. The bronze bushings don't look all that bad to me, but I suppose they are worth replacing as long as I am in there?

    The only real damage that I saw was on the bottom race of the worm gear. There is one section that is very pitted. I was thinking of putting thin layer of JB weld on the pitting and sanding it smooth.

    I'm going to probably replace/rebuild the drag link and the bellcrank because I felt some play in those.

    Here are some photos, please let me know what you think:

    image1.JPG
    image2.JPG

    image3.JPG


    Sorry these are not the greatest quality, but you get the idea ;)

    I have to decide now what to order. I don't want to go overboard if a part is in OK condition, I also don't want to have to pull everything apart again.
     
  7. May 27, 2017
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Don't try to re-contour the studs, it won't work. Best to pop them out & rotate them 180 degrees.

    Replace the bushings but they will need to be reamed to proper size after installation, I used a brake hone to do that.

    H.
     
  8. May 27, 2017
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I started this thread on Moses' site a year or so ago, and documented each step - with Moses' help throughout - of the rebuild process for the V6 Ross steering box:

    Rebuilding the Jeep Ross TL Cam and Lever Steering Gear

    As long as you have the proper tools, the process is not especially difficult, though it is a bit painstaking to do it "right". Finding an NOS sector / lever shaft was probably the hardest part. If you can't rotate the pins on your current shaft, reproduction V6 sector shafts are (as Tim noted above) now available from Kaiser-Willys, and perhaps from other sources as well...but I have no idea whether or not those those repros are good from the standpoint of the hardness of the metals that are used.

    I'd be doubtful that you could effectively repair a worn bearing race on the worm gear / cam steering shaft, as those were hardened and machined to very close tolerances. If it is too pitted to re-use, you'd likely be better off finding a used steering shaft that's in good shape.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  9. May 27, 2017
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
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    X2

    Pretty easy to grind the rivet head off the back of the studs then drive them out with a punch, rotate and reinstall. I know you mentioned not having a welder, but be sure to have someone tack weld the back of the studs so they don't drift out.

    Also, bearings and races are very hard material, JB weld in the lower race won't hold up for long. Since you have it apart, I would try to source a new race if you can.

    Sounds like you have a good handle on it, should be a vast improvement when you are done...especially if you rework the bell crank and drag link as well.

    Tim
     
  10. May 28, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Thank you Maury for that link. That is an amazing rebuild - a lot more attention to detail than I have time or motivation for!!! The pictures are a great help. I will definitely be referencing them (and the factory service manual) as I re-assemble.

    I'm probably going to leave the studs alone. There was such minimal wear I don't know if is worth the hassle of repositioning them. This Jeep actually has only about 24,000 miles on it. It was an RV tow-behind vehicle.

    As for the pitting on the worm gear itself - I'd need to find a whole new worm gear from somewhere. I figured I didn't have much to lose trying the JB weld. It's worked for me in the past in automotive applications quite well. Worst can happen is that it wears away. If someone knows where I can find an undamaged one for a V6 Jeep without spending an arm and a leg - please let me know.

    I ordered the parts from Kaiser Willys because they were the only ones I could find that had the parts for the V6 Jeep.

    I'm hoping to at least make the steering better than it was, and stop the leak.
     
  11. May 28, 2017
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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  12. Jun 5, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Any suggestions on how to re-attach the horn wire tube to the box? It was loose, so I removed it. I've tried JB Weld twice now, after carefully cleaning and filing the surfaces, and it just breaks free with the slightest tap. It just seems like the horn tube is too slick for the JB Weld to adhere to it. I was using the Quick Set JB Weld, so maybe it's not as strong as the regular stuff? I was thinking of soldering it, but I'd probably have to remove the plate, which is currently secure and not leaking, so I don't want to do that.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  13. Jun 5, 2017
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    By the plate, I think you probably mean the circular washer-shaped base, or cover, of the horn tube, which were originally brazed to the tubes. It sounds like the tube has separated from the cover, and you're trying to reattach them.

    As you've found, it may not be possible to get a secure enough bond between the tube and the cover using epoxy. If you can braze, you can repair the horn tube assembly, but in order to do so you would have to remove the cover from the steering box housing first. This is easy to do by using a long screwdriver or punch and working through the inside of the housing, tapping the cover gently out. (see Rebuilding the Jeep Ross TL Cam and Lever Steering Gear)

    Another alternative would be to buy a replacement horn tube assembly with an intact cover and replace the entire part. IIRC, one source may be Willys Jeep Parts in Yuma, AZ, which I believe stocks replacement and takeoff horn tubes. Once you have either a repaired or replaced horn tube in hand, simply tap the cover into the housing from the outside (using an appropriately sized socket works well), centering the tube in the holes in the housing as you tap, and then epoxy the outer edge of the cover in place. I used the steel-reinforced JB Weld for this, and it worked great.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  14. Jun 6, 2017
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I really enjoy reading this Forum, so much information can be found on this site, you guys are great. Thanks for all the Information.
     
  15. Jun 10, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Thanks for all of the help guys. In the meantime, while waiting for parts, I decided to also address the leak from the back of my transfer case.

    The output shaft seal is leaking, as are the shims between the speedo gear housing (transfer case bearing cap) and t-case.

    I've read most of the old threads about leaking d-18's, so here is my plan. Let me know what you guys think.

    1. Replace the output shaft seal - National 472635

    2. Coat both sides of each of the shims with Permatex No. 3

    3. Put ultra-black RTV on the splines inside the Companion Flange.

    4. And, while I am at it, reseal the t-case pan with Permatex Right Stuff, with a dab of the sealer on each of the bolt threads.

    5. Install a brake backing plate to transfer case bearing cap gasket. There wasn't one there when I disassembled.

    Is there anything I missed in my attempt for a leak-free D18?

    I already re-sealed the Warn overdrive with good results. So I have high hopes for stopping the leaks!

    Thanks in advance.
     
  16. Jun 11, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Hope I can piggyback a couple other questions in addition to the ones just above.

    I pulled the speedo driving gear off before noting its orientation. Duh! Does it matter which way this goes on?

    IMG_0109.JPG

    If you closely on the right side there is a small grove machined around the gear. On the right side there is no groove. Just wondering if this somehow indicates orientation?

    I'm also wondering how the gear itself works as it is free to spin on the output shaft. I'm assuming once the yoke is bolted on the pressure from the yoke presses this speedo gear against the output shaft bearing, and holds it in place. Yes, my speedo did work before I dissasmbled.

    One other question: when I re-install the yoke nut, how tight should I go? I had to use a 1/2 impact gun to get it off, so I was thinking of just re-installing the nut with the impact gun to where it seems tight enough. The FSM seems to be vague on the installation torque, it says something like "at least 150 ft-lbs".

    Thank you for all the help and guidance- I am lost without everyone's awesome help!
     
  17. Jun 11, 2017
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Better to post a new thread for each question. Then you can give it a descriptive title, get more responses, and help other Jeepers searching for an answer to the question.

    Re the yoke nut, you could reinstall with your impact wrench, then pull on it with a breaker bar to check. Just looking at the '72 TSM, it says 200-220 ft-lbs for both the 30 and 44 (50 more for the 60). Hanging on the end of a 2' breaker bar will be in that range. Note that you are supposed to use a new nut ... I have reused the old nut with some blue Loctite.
     
  18. Jun 17, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Just an update, I installed some NOS sector shaft bushings today (M38a1 bushings!). I was able to carefully tap them into the housing using a bearing race driver. The hard part was getting them started straight. I was able to do this using a rubber mallet and some patience.

    The sector shaft would not slide into either side bushing after installation, so I used a brake hone to hone them to size. The outer bushing took a long time, probably half an hour or more. I would hone for 5 or 10 seconds, clean and check the fit, and do it some more. I didn't want to over-do the honing. I finally reached a point where the shaft would slide about halfway in, but it absolutely wouldn't budge any further. So I honed the bushing bit more - maybe 10 seconds, and the sector shaft then slid right in. I feel like the fit is almost is too loose. I can wiggle the shaft up and down when it's inserted into only the outer bushing. Bummer.

    The inner bushing took very little honing, and the shaft slid in smoothly. I feel very little play when wiggling the shaft with it inserted just into the inner bushing. The shaft does turn smoothly with no binding when fully installed.

    But I am worried that perhaps I over-did the honing on the outer bushing a bit. It's too late now, I'd need two new bushings to try again :(

    I believe I'm going to hope for the best and go with it as is. I do have a dial gauge on the way that I ordered to check the runout on the sector shaft. I'm curious to find out what the actual numbers are.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
  19. Jun 18, 2017
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
  20. Jun 18, 2017
    Jeepman31

    Jeepman31 New Member

    Colorado, USA
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    Thanks for clarifying that. It sounds like I am in trouble then and need to try to remove and install a fresh outer bushing. I must have somehow distorted the bushing during installation, or the housing bore itself is not concentric.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017
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