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Motor timing 180* out?

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by turbogus, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. Sep 28, 2015
    w3srl

    w3srl Semi-retired in Florida Staff Member

    Port Orange, FL
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    Fuel leaking from the throttle shafts sounds more like a stuck float condition. I'm also curious, did you cap the bowl vent because there was fuel pouring out of it? This also points to a stuck or improperly adjusted float.

    Also, once the plugs are coated in fuel they can look perfectly fine but not fire well or at all. BTDT. ;)
     
  2. Oct 1, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Initially when I pulled the AFB I noticed one of the brass floats had perforated and sunk. I got a pair of new Edelbrock brass floats and proceeded. Maladjustment of the floasts is what I thought at first glance of the Air Horn and I did have to adjust the floats by a couple of 1000ths on float drop.
    My best friend whom was helping me that day we did get it running capped that float chamber vent, that I quickly addressed the follwing day.

    With regard to the spark plugs, ages ago I got this here Harbor Freight benchtop spark plug sandblaster, that I was using on my 'go fast' '78 Kawasaki Z1R turbo that liked to run rich unless at WFO (I later addressed this with a larger air cleaner). So, before I reinstalled the plugs I blasted 'em and regapped.
     
  3. Oct 1, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Now, the Echlin rebuild kit I got from NAPA included two sets of Needles (needle and seat) one pair with internal springs and one pair of solid. The instructions mention the spring type are for late model AFB's and the solids for earlier ones. In this process I've noticed these;

    [​IMG]

    that are for Marine and Off Road, are these the same as in the rebuild kit?
     
  4. Oct 1, 2015
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs 2019 Sponsor

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    The spring loaded needle/seats should work for either style AFB, they are better for off road use.
     
  5. Oct 2, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Here's what came in the Echlin rebuild kit, they look the same to me;
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Oct 4, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Well, I assembled the AFB using these needles and something that has troubled me in the reassembly process is the fact that the tension springs for the air bleed adjustment screws are too long, so to achieve 1 1/2 to 2 turns from bottoming out, the springs need to be shorter if my eyeball measurements are correct. I've got another Chrysler AFB and the Edelborck Carter clone at home so I'm going to see if there's any difference.
     
  7. Oct 5, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    I dropped by the local hardware store and got one gauge lighter springs that I'll cut to length so to achieve the initial air gap (mixture) 1.5 to 2 turns out.
     
  8. Oct 6, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    That gauge of spring I was able to cut to length and is working great. Was able to get the initial 1.5 to 2 turns out from bottom and the spring tension is enough to hold in place. :)
     
  9. Oct 14, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    The motor's running now, a little rough but I've yet to adjust the air screws and the ignition timing. In summary what caused my trouble seems to have been a perforated (sunken) float and the throttle shafts needed bushings on account of wear.
     
  10. Oct 14, 2015
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Good to hear your getting there.
     
  11. Oct 15, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Well, looks like I spoke too soon. Spark plugs loaded up after initial startup. In the foul mood I'm in right now I'd just as soon have it towed to the wrecking yard. :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  12. Oct 16, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

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    Now that I've regained my brain and got out of that funk, I had a look at the original installation guide (from '85) and on page 4 the troubleshooting section the first item to check is needle and seat. Looking into my Strip Kit I took note that while the needles appear to have the same tip (save for one pair that are solid brass) the only difference is at the float end;

    a. The solid brass one wqas a check valve for the Accelerator Pump circuit

    b.[​IMG]

    c.[​IMG] Note this is the internal spring (Marine/Off Road type)

    c1.[​IMG] Rear view of same (without spring)

    d. [​IMG]

    Now where I seem to have gone wrong (unless I'm missing something ELSE) was at the seats where they are metered (like a jet) from what appears (by drill size);
    1. 5/32
    2. 3/32
    3. 13/128???
    and 4. 7/64

    I have yet to tear into the air horn but I'm betting theres a honkin' large seat in there that's flowing too much fuel. Would anyone have information on the correct size for the flow differences between these for an AMC 304, 360 and 401?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
  13. Oct 16, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Okay, doing decimal conversions I detirmined that the smallest seat (3/32) is 0.0935 which is a stock factory diameter according to the Dave Emanuel book on Carters (c 1983 ISBN 0-931472-11-3), while what was in this AFB were monstrous 0.1094 another set were 0.1625! I'm reverting back to that O.E. seat in the hopes it'll take care of the flooding. Sidebar this large seat is what came in the Echlin rebuild kit, apparently for a B Mopar
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  14. Oct 19, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Reinstalled the AFB with that small seat and the motor fired right up after fuel reached the carb, I'm hoping now I'm on the right track. Did I turn this 360 into a turn key?
     
  15. Oct 22, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

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    At this point in time I would like to thank everyone who's been posting reccomendations, especially as with this damm work ethic of mine I'm not the shapest tack by the time I get home to work on this AFB.

    The following day I went to adjust the mixture and line up the timing but the motor began chugging to a stop before I could align the timing light (no mean feat with these AMC V8's) Looks like I'm having to pull that AFB again and take another look at those needles and re-check the jet, rod and springs, although this carb was running great without any changes to them for the last 3 years. The enlarged photos I've posted here though of the needles don't seem to show any damage to the spring type (black tip) although I do see a ridge on the red tipped needle.
     
  16. Oct 25, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Okay the Primary jets were No. 395's .095 inches and the Secomdaries (that I installed when earlier I found no jets in the secondaries at all) were No 398's .098 inches. In the Strip Kit I have other Jets that as I can detirmine are;

    401 - .101
    400 - .100
    396 - .096
    395 - .095
    392 - .092

    I reckon I could start with the next lowest with a new plug in No. 1 and see how the land lays and move down from there.
     
  17. Oct 26, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    In addition to these jets I have a selection of rods, but I can't seem to find online the sizes corresponding to the numbers stamped on these rods, does anyone know the coding on these?

    Originally on this AFB 16-7147
    xx47
    18-7037
    7342
    7347
    16-W8500
     
  18. Oct 28, 2015
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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  19. Oct 28, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    That 'Black Stallion' AFB I ran back in the early '80's on a wonderful souped up SBC until a career meltdown made me liquidate all but the most essential property I owned. I pulled that motor and sold it seperately as it had several super duty parts in it and I could make more money for it parted out. I pulled the then new AFB 'Black Stallion' and sold it to my best friend in 1991.

    Then about 5 years ago when I got my current CJ5 it had an Edelbrock Carter AFB clone carburator on it that never did run right and owing to a backfire burned up. Luckily I had a fire extinguisher close at hand. It was then that I bought my genuine AFB back from my best friend and slapped it on my CJ5 and it ran just fine with no issues until late this summer when that float perforated/sunk. That's when this odyssey began.


    btw the new digital calipers I got yesterday sure made exacting work of the float and drop, one of which using the gauge from the rebuild kit I was off 1/16" I hope to mic out the rods and find the most restrictive and try 'em out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  20. Nov 4, 2015
    turbogus

    turbogus Member

    Albany, Oregon
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    Well, I got some smaller jets 0.090 primary and 0.089 for the secondaries, I also changed the step up springs to the next lighter but I may not be out of the woods yet. :rolleyes:
     

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