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Original OEM Tire Sizes on Early CJ5s

Discussion in 'Early Jeep Restoration and Research' started by maurywhurt, Dec 20, 2009.

  1. Dec 20, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Original (OEM) Tire Sizes on Early CJ5s

    In an earlier thread I started in this forum about my near-original '67, Tom in RI asked a very good question re. the size of the wheels I plan to use vs. those that originally came on the jeep. I've actually done some research on that and believe that the original wheels on my jeep were probably 16". Here's how I arrived at that conclusion.

    In an old Kaiser Willys envelope that came with the jeep, besides some old original (1967-1970) period photos were two original Jeep brochures. One of those brochures included this photo:

    [​IMG]


    If you compare the tires in the brochure to the ones on my jeep in the original photos, they are identical. From the tread pattern it appears that they were either Goodyear Suburbanite or Firestone Town & Country tires, which were very similar. Here's a side-by-side comparison of 1) the spare tire in an original photo of my jeep, 2) the Town & Country tire in an old Firestone ad, and 3) the tire shown in the brochure picture (which from the front hub appears to be on a 4WD jeep):

    [​IMG]


    Note that I've added some horizontal lines to the picture of the spare in the first photo to allow me to at least roughly scale the heights of the wheel and tire relative to each other. I couldn't adjust the ruler to make it easier to figure out, but if you do the math, assuming the height of the wheel was 16", the overall height of the tire would scale out to be about 28". This jives with the dimensions of a 6.00 x 16 tire (which are typically 28.3" tall).

    Conversely, if one assumes a height of 15" for the rim, the overall height of the tire would only scale out to be about 26.25" - which I believe would have been smaller than any of the OEM tires that came on jeeps from the factory at that time.

    Lastly, here's a chart from that same brochure showing the tire sizes that came standard from the factory on the mid-60's CJs. The chart appears to date from '65 (note code at bottom left corner); however, Jeep may have continued to use it in their promotional material for several years, as the postmark on the Kaiser Willys envelope is dated 1968:

    [​IMG]


    According to this chart, at that time, the standard tire size for the 4WD Universal Jeeps was 6.00 x 16. Based on all of the above, I believe that the original tires on my jeep were probably 6.00 x 16's.

    As a side note, Firestone still made the Town & Country tire up to around 2001, though they since discontinued them. Here's a fairly recent photo of a CJ3B (in Spain, I think) sporting a set of them in 6.00 x 16:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  2. Dec 20, 2009
    Tom in RI

    Tom in RI Member

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    You were so lucky to get the brochure "Plain or Fancy" with your jeep! That used to be posted on this site until it was hacked.
    The cool thing about that brochure is it seems to have a '65 date code, shows a CJ5 with V6 emblems and has the old style hood with military snorkel cutout. A interesting combo!

    One more piece of info for research is the service manual. An available repro of SM1046 is dated '65 but clearly has newer information such as the T14 transmission. Page 340 lists Wheel and tire specs and the V6 equipped CJ5 lists 15x6 wheels and 7.35-15 tires. The F4 jeep lists 16x4.5 wheels with 6.00-16 tires. Let me know if you want a scan of that page.
    The only original parts book I have is an early 60's version: pre- Dauntless

    There is also a section about the "new" letter designations for tires. the 7.35x15 was an E70-15.
    Somewhere I thought I had seen that there was an optional 8.45-15 (H70-15) available in '66. Need to research that a bit more. My spare was a Goodyear suburbanite 8.45-15 when I got the jeep.

    Tom
     
  3. Dec 20, 2009
    Admiral Cray

    Admiral Cray I want to do this again.. Staff Member

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    Not to hijack this tread, but I have been doing research on what rims are correct for my '66 CJ5. The rims on my Jeep are two different types and I found out today two different sizes.

    Anyway I think that the 16 inch rims were not an option for the V6 Cj5. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Here is the page about rims from a original parts book dated 1967 (revised 9/66). page 179:

    [​IMG]

    It indicates that for the V6 only the 15 x 5.5 rims were available for the CJ5 and CJ5A. Am I wrong? I wonder if the rims for the V6 were different for the rims for the 4F? The two types of rims I have are slightly different in the lug nut area too. I am not sure if these rims had hub cap bumps or not. Did the Tux (CJ5A) having hub caps make hub cap bumps for all rims to simplify rim supplies?

    I may start my own thread on rims. I have done searches, but not found out very much.

    Cary 8)
     
    Avb likes this.
  4. Dec 20, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Thanks, very interesting! It may be that certain standards, including perhaps tire sizes (as well as other things, such as the hood snorkel cutout and backup lights) were in somewhat of a state of flux for some period of time. That pattern certainly held true for WWII jeeps, which I am better acquainted with. While I feel fairly confident based on the original photos that my 4WD V6 jeep had 16" wheels - at least at the time the photos were taken - others produced during the same general era may not have. I also wonder if variations in rim sizes could also have been cases of "standard' vs. "optional"...?

    If there is interest in them, I'd be glad to scan and post the entire "Plain & Fancy" brochure, as well as the smaller second brochure that was with it. If so, would this be the best forum to post those on?

    Maury
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  5. Dec 21, 2009
    Admiral Cray

    Admiral Cray I want to do this again.. Staff Member

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    Maury,

    I have started a thread about stock rims here.

    One question on your scaling? It looks like you are measuring from the top of the rim to the bottom, not from the bead to bead. My rim measure 16 inches over all but are 15 inch rims measuring from bead to bead.

    Hope you find out what tires and rims are correct for your Jeep. I am interested to find out too. I also think if you want 16 inch they will work.

    Cary 8)
     
  6. Dec 21, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Cary,

    Now that is something I hadn't considered. If 16" rims actually measure 17" +/- outside to outside, I would have to conclude that you're probably correct, and that the original rims on my jeep were 15", not 16". If they were 15", I wonder if the tires were 6.85 x 15, or something else?

    I looked at your other thread on rims, and from the "Specifications - Commercial Vehicle" sheet, it appears that 16" rims were optional on the V6 CJs. Interestingly, it lists the corresponding optional tires as 700 x 16, rather than 600 x 16 - which could be a reflection of a heavier, i.e. commercial, use expected for those vehicles.

    Looking at the page from the service manual on wheels....I really wonder why there were so many wheel options, and both 15" and 16" shown as being available for the F4 engined CJs, but only two 15" rims for the more expensive V6 models? Maybe, as you theorized in your post on rims, it was a gearing issue - though if that were the case, you wouldn't think they would have spec'ed them as options for commercial CJs either.

    Maury


    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  7. Dec 21, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    I've previously observed that scaling pictures is practically useless.
    Therefore scaling drawings is totally useless.

    It is a fact that Kaiser Jeep Corporation frequently provided out dated specifications.
     
  8. Dec 21, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    As an architect, I must disagree re. the value of scaling photographs....I often use the same basic methodology professionally, and it can be quite helpful in getting close to an actual historical dimension. It is only approximate, of course, but absolute precision is not the goal. If done properly, it just gets you close, which is frequently good enough to suffice for the intended purpose. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to regarding scaling off of drawings, which I've not attempted to do here.

    In order to scale off of a photograph with a reasonable degree of accuracy, one has to have a known unit value to base the scale on, as well as a more or less undistorted vertical or horizontal axis to establish a line of relative measure. My error, as Cary quite correctly pointed out, was that I assumed the outside diameter of a 16" rim to be 16", when in fact it is just over 17" (having verified that today by measuring the OD of the 16" rims on my GPW).

    The 16" outside diameter I was using, however, is very close to being correct for a 15" rim. Based on that correction, it appears that the rims on my jeep were 15", not 16" as I had previously surmised. If the service manual page above is correct, it would appear that they were either 15 x 4.0 or 15 x 5.5.

    Maury
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  9. Dec 21, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Cary,

    Does the same service manual have a page that lists the OEM tire sizes for CJs? If so, it would be great to see that!

    Thanks for your helpful advice above....

    Maury
     
  10. Dec 21, 2009
    Admiral Cray

    Admiral Cray I want to do this again.. Staff Member

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    Maury,

    Here are two source I have, one is from the SM-1046 Service Manual reprint 1975 (Tom sighted in his post) and the other is from an Original Owner's Manual OM-1050 copyright 1965.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I also have the SM-1002-R6, but it is a reprint from 1965 and only shows one tire size 6.00-16. As Tom indicated.

    Cary 8)
     
  11. Dec 21, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    maurywhurt,
    I'm not knocking your zeal. You get an A+ for effort.
    It's just that the perspective views (angles and distances) are rarely close enough to warrant any precision comparison.
    You state that absolute precision is not the goal yet for me absolute precision becomes mandatory.
    Did you not also scale the 65-09 brochure for comparison ?

    Yes that service manual is valid to January of 1967.
    Notice...15 x 4.00 J type rim and disk is for DJ only.
    Those have 4 lug disks and so they will not even fit on a CJ.

    The 15 x 4.50 KH (for 7.00 x 15") tires will fit your CJ but are not correct for your vintage.
    They were optional equipment on all CJ models before 1963.
    That includes CJ-2A, CJ-3A, CJ-3B, CJ-5, CJ-6.

    There was also a 15" x 6.00 KH rim used sometime after 1966.
    I do not have my CJ wheel notes with me nor the post 1966 tire information at this present time.

    Note: the various wheel dimensions were intended for use with specific sized tires.
     
  12. Dec 21, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Ken,

    To answer your question and to clarify....no, I was only scaling the tire & wheel in the photo on the far left. The brochure image at right was included only for the purpose of comparing the tread to that in the center image showing the Firestone Town & Country tire.

    I would certainly agree that absolute precision is ideal - when you have absolute data to work with. But when you don't (and I didn't in this case), I believe it's better to work with what you do have and attempt to determine answers as closely as possible accordingly. If some of the printed data published by Kaiser Willys was indeed flawed as you stated - and I'd bet you're right about that - then it seems to me that analyzing the available visual information as well to see what might be gleaned makes all the more sense.

    Maury

    BTW, my bad on the 15 x 4.0 rims....I read the chart wrong!
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  13. Dec 21, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Maury,
    Your logic is flawless.
    AFAIK the 7.35 x 15" was the standard tire for a 1967 V-6 CJ.
     
  14. Dec 21, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Coming from such a precision-oriented individual as yourself, Ken, I'll take that as a compliment. :beer:


    So...to get back to the purpose of this thread, I believe the OEM tire sizes that have been identified so far are as follows (thanks for posting all the great info, Cary!):


    V6 CJ:

    7.35 x 15
    or
    7.00 x 16 (from the Commercial Vehicle Specs on Cary's thread on OEM rims)


    F4 CJ:

    6.85 x 15
    or
    7.00 x 15
    or
    6.00 x 16

    Also, the service manual chart seems to indicate that a 13" rim (& tire) was available on the F4 CJs....was that entry correct?

    Maury
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2009
  15. Dec 22, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Lots more CJ tire sizes than that.
    But those are all correct for certain years and on specified wheels.

    # 648914 Rim and Disk 13 x 5.50 (split type) assembly (9.00 x 13" sand tires)
    *Info taken from multiple Willys Motors publications.
     
  16. Dec 22, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Thanks, Ken....that's great information. Maybe someone has a photo they could post showing a jeep with those 13" split rims and sand tires!

    Would it be accurate to say that for at least the 1965-67 era CJ5s, the above noted OEM tire sizes comprise a complete list?

    It seems that for other year ranges of early CJ5s, other OEM tire sizes may have been available. If so, can anyone share what those sizes were?


    Maury
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  17. Dec 22, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    I don't want to get into generalizations because of military exports and such during this same timeline.
    Can you be specific for the model, engine and vintage ?


    6.50 x 15...6.70 x 15...7.00 x 15...7.35 x 15...7.60 x 15...10 x 15
    6.00 x 16...6.50 x 16...7.00 x 16...
    some of the available known numerical sizes used on various vintage CJ's not to mention the later lettered designations.
     
  18. Dec 22, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Your depth of knowledge in this area is truly impressive, Ken. Thank you for your willingness to share it!

    My purpose in starting this thread wasn't really to pin down the correct tires for my particular jeep as much as hoping that it could serve as a reference for others down the road. From what you're saying, however, it sounds like this may be a more complex issue than could realistically be thoroughly covered here.

    If someone has a need to find the OEM tires sizes that were available for a particular year and model CJ, perhaps they could just post that information here and get the benefit of your or others' knowledge on the subject.

    In case it might be helpful, here's a link to some tire conversion charts that show many of the older tire sizes & measurements, and the closest equivalents in today's available sizes:

    http://www.turbinecar.com/tires.htm


     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2009
  19. Dec 30, 2009
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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  20. Aug 11, 2021
    truckee4x4

    truckee4x4 Grant Kaye 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Bumping this old thread to verify that the correct OEM wheel size for a 1966 CJ5 Tux V6 is 15” diameter…..right?
     
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