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Thick starter cable melting!

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Hippo393, Jun 19, 2004.

  1. Jun 19, 2004
    Hippo393

    Hippo393 Jeepless

    Charlotte, NC
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    Sep 22, 2002
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    Just swapped a V6 into the tux and can't get it started now. :evil: The engine only slowly turns (it did "catch" once). The large red cable that goes from the + batt to the starter
    gets hot and eventually smokes where it attaches to the starter when the key's in the "ON" or "start" position.

    I had bench-tested the V6 and tranny prior to swapping it in, so I know the engine's not stuck. Today I removed the starter and bench tested it and it whirred no prob. What could be causing this??
     
  2. Jun 19, 2004
    Patrick

    Patrick Super Moderator Staff Member

    Los Alamos, NM
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    Does it get hot with key on, not cranking position? If so, you prolly have a short somewhere, and other smaller wires getting hot. If the batt cable only gets hot while cranking, your starter is drawing too many amps.... The starter could turn freely on the bench, but put a load on it (turning the engine) and it could be drawing to much. Also, make sure the connections at ALL battery cable terminals are clean and tight.....HTH
     
  3. Jun 19, 2004
    Hippo393

    Hippo393 Jeepless

    Charlotte, NC
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    Thanks Patrick, yeah only the starter cable gets hot, and only at the end terminal on the starter (in the "ON" non cranking position). The solenoid cable is fine. It smokes the longer I try to start the V6. It worked before in the other V6, so I dunno. What could the short be? Starter is grounded to the block, block is grounded via strap to frame. I'll keep tryin. keep the idears comin'! :beer:
     
  4. Jun 19, 2004
    CT

    CT Member

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    Apr 28, 2004
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    Some problem. Glad you have it grounded to the block. I have heard that is a good thing to do to. I once had a M38A! that when I would start it the choke cable would get hot. Seems it was not getting a good ground, and the choke cable was the ground. I put a ground strap to the frame, body and motor. ANd my problems were over.

    Just wondering, could you have a loose connection to the from the starter to the starter solenoid ? ANd also from the battery to the solenoid . Might want to recheck those connections. Don't really know if that would help. But maybe worth checking.


    Also how about where the starter housing connects to the motor. Was it a freshly painted motor and/or starter that were put on recently? I am sure the starter is probably well connected. However it is going to get it's ground from the bolts going to the flywheel cover. If these had fresh paint on them, maybe you are not getting a good ground for the starter. The paint could be acting as a insulator for the starter and the bolts. ANd you would not get a good ground. To check it out you could take a pair of jumper cables and just use the negative side only and ground starter housing directly to the battery. ANd then try stating it and see if your postivitve cable at the stater still gets hot. If this is the problem, you would need to loosen up the conection and wire brush around the starter that comes in contact with the motor.
     
  5. Jun 20, 2004
    Hippo393

    Hippo393 Jeepless

    Charlotte, NC
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    CT, good ideas! No there's no fresh paint that would be the culprit. I hadn't thought of the solenoid-to-starter connection though, good idea to check. I ended up swapping out starters because I had a spare lying around. Threw on jumper cables from my running V6 (in the '71 CJ-5) and it eventually started. Cable is still hot though. Engine still turns very slow and uneven. At least now I think I have it traced to my dead battery which requires jumper cables. I'm concerned now because jumpers usually provide enough juice to get that flywheel spinning fast. Not in this case, even w/ diffo cables. Dang V6 spins slow and uneven. :evil:
     
  6. Jun 20, 2004
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Still sounds like a starter problem if all the connections are good. Maybe it's dirty inside, brushes not making good contact? Maybe the other engine was more worn and the starter didn't have to work as hard on it?
     
  7. Jun 20, 2004
    jason

    jason Member

    worcester mass
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    Oct 27, 2002
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    we had a simlar problem the motor would turn fine outside of the frame but once installed it would turn slow, it came down to the thro out bearing was wrong and it was causing the motor to turn slow and drawing alot of amps on the starter and cables, but you said it ran all right on the bench its got to be a wiring problem, jason.
     
  8. Jun 20, 2004
    msbweiland

    msbweiland Member

    Yakima, WA
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    Make sure your battery is fully charged too. According to Ohms Law, amperage will go up if the voltage goes down. Put your battery on a charger and test it before you replace anything. I'd guess either a bad connection (could even be a bad spot inside your cable) or a bad starter. But the first thing you should do is make sure your battery has plenty of juice and is in good condition. ;) All electrical problems can be placed into one of three catagories; open, short, grounded. :D
     
  9. Jun 20, 2004
    James P. Enderwies

    James P. Enderwies Sponsor

    Lake Havasu City, AZ
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    Hippo: All good ideas above. If you have a good Batt to Body, Body to Frame, Eng. to Frame ground, it's prolly your starter. Of course it was good last time you tried it! :shock: It prolly has now died due to the alignment of the planets or some other equally valid reason. :evil: R)
     
  10. Jun 20, 2004
    kamel

    kamel Senior Curmudgeon

    Erlanger, Kentucky
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    Jun 10, 2003
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    I think that the previous poster meant to say that as the voltage goes up, so does the current across a constant resistance. Vice Versa is true as well.

    Ohm's law is: current = voltage/resistance.

    For "starters", do you have the battery installed in the vehicle, or are you trying to jump it from another. I had the identical problem on a V-6 when trying to jump from another jeep.

    I installed the battery in the jeep properly and bingo it cranked and started fine.

    You ought to make sure that you have the right gauge wire from the battery-solenoid-starter circuit. I always like to use "double 0" gauge in 6 volt systems. Most parts guys will tell me that there is no such thing, but there is. In the 12 volt circuit you should be able to get away with 0 gauge or maybe 1 gauge.

    This is a case where there is no down side to using larger wire except that the parts guys might tell you that you don't know what you are doing.

    If you haven't already renewed the solenoid, do it now. It is a very cheap thing to do and is one less thing in the system to worry about.

    If the engine is grounded well -- e.g. a strap from engine to frame, and the battery is grounded well and all connections are clean and tight, and the battery is fully charged, it should work.

    If it still doesn't work or wants to smoke the starter wire, I'd look at the starter. But I wouldn't do any of this until I had made sure that the wire to the starter is sufficiently heavy to handle the current (load).

    And that the battery you are using is installed in the jeep, and not jumped from another vehicle.


    And here's a tip for you. When working on battery cables, disconnect the negative (ground) first. Then disconnect the positive.

    k man
     
  11. Jun 20, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
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    Get your hands on a voltmeter, put the + lead on the + side of the battery. Take the - (negative) lead and put it on the post of the starter coming from the solenoid. Have a helper crank it over and note what your reading is. You just tested for voltage drop! The lower the reading the better. In my book .10V per connection is acceptable. This test isolates bad components really quick!

    BTW, if you have a high reading (Say maybe 1.0V or more), take the negative lead and move it to the next closest connection in the starting circuit. You'll know which part or parts are faulty when an individual part has a high voltage reading from this test- ex: if your meter shows a 2V drop in your main cable, your starter can get no more than 10V on a good day.

    Good luck and let us know what you find!

    mruta
     
  12. Jun 21, 2004
    msbweiland

    msbweiland Member

    Yakima, WA
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    Not to split hares, but as your voltage goes up, the required amperage goes down. That's why we crank up the voltage at the power company to push enough power for a city down 2" thick cables. It's MUCH easier to push the power if it's higher voltage rather than lower voltage.
    The voltage drop test described above will pinpoint any electrical problem you might have. A good DVOM will be worth it's weight in gold if you know how to use it.
     
  13. Jun 21, 2004
    Hippo393

    Hippo393 Jeepless

    Charlotte, NC
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    Great ideas, gurus. Anyone want to cruise over to Ohio to be my "helper" on the voltage test? I work solo so that's a toughie. It's possible that the cable has a faulty spot because it heats up bad where the copper head innervates with the cable. Perhaps I'll try to swap that out. The installed battery is deader than a doornail, but was fine fully charged (only 1 yr old). Jumper cables from a running Jeep usually suffice in getting that flywheel a-spinnin', but not this time for some reason. Glenn that's interesting about one engine being worn vs. the other. But both known-working starters result in the same probs now, so I doubt it's either starter since they worked fine before. WTF!!
     
  14. Jun 21, 2004
    JohnyJeep

    JohnyJeep BLOWING A XING NEAR U@2AM

    Beautiful Cody WY
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    Make sure you have really good ground connections. I use "star" washers between my terminals and the block/frame, so that the serrated edges of the washer dig into the metal for a good ground. Good luck.
     
  15. Jun 21, 2004
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Just for the he$% of it, try turning the engine over by hand. (socket on crank) How hard is it to turn over?

    If that wire is smoking in only one spot, I'd definatly replace it. The 2 places wires usually break are at the end, and the other end, right where the connector stops and the wire starts. You'd be surprised how much voltage can drop off when part of the cable is broken away. The power has to go alot "faster" to get thru the thinner wire which causes heat- and smoke.
    HTH :?
     
  16. Jun 21, 2004
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    I missed that you tried 2 different starters, so yeah rule out the starter bad. Gotta be something in connections or the cable as mentioned. I agree with Brian about turning it over by hand too, that should rule out other problems.
     
  17. Jun 21, 2004
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
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    I've got a lot of free time for the next ohhh, 8 weeks or so. How far is your place from Chicago? You supplyin' the brew??? :D
     
  18. Jun 21, 2004
    Hippo393

    Hippo393 Jeepless

    Charlotte, NC
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    Maybe I should get some of those star washers. The 2 bots that connect the starter to the block don't have 'em or I've lost 'em. I'm using lock washers on both. Another idea: the solenoid has a 3rd terminal that's not used. What's it for?

    Brian good descripton. I'll definitely replace the cable and go from there. The engine turns over with a breaker bar on the crank nut. Remember I had the V6 running on the bench prior to stuffing it in, and it's run since. But it's a mystery why it turns so slow. For fun I left the breaker bar on the crank nut and turned the key. Engine stopped when the bar bound up against the rail, and of course that batt cable was smokin' hot after a minute.
     
  19. Jun 21, 2004
    Jim Wiseman

    Jim Wiseman New Member

    Palo Alto, CA
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    You have a bad cable. You have localized heat generation because of a bad cannector.
     
  20. Jun 21, 2004
    kamel

    kamel Senior Curmudgeon

    Erlanger, Kentucky
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    Earlier there was some discussion on Ohm's law. Not to re-split hairs, but it is impossible for the current to go down if the voltage goes up with a fixed resistance.

    It would not only violate Ohm's law, but most of the laws of mathematics.

    current = voltage / resistance

    If--

    voltage =6
    resistance = 2

    6 / 2 = 3 amps

    if voltage goes up to 12 and resistance stays the same.

    12 / 2 = 6 amps

    This is true even in California.
     
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