Thought on Vin numbers

So just on a whim I was looking at the VIN decoders and looked up mine. Now I know my Jeep is all original (besides the softop, seats and maybe the window frame) but yet it does not really match the decoder at all.

My Jeep is a 1965 CJ5, with the F134, T90, D18 - 27a front axle, 44 rear axle, both 4.27 gears. It has a split window frame like what you find on a military yet the original owner swears it was on there when he bought it. He says the Jeep was built to be an "export" but he ended up getting it somehow.

The VIN is 8305 166561 and everything does seems to be original. I have seen picture of it through out its life and the inspections are all look consistent.

Anyway, does anyone else find their Jeeps do not match what the decoders say they should? Any thoughts on it? Am I just reading it wrong?

 

Most decoders won't work for JEEP vehicles because there are not enough numbers in the VIN.

 

Not a lot to decode on the older Jeeps.

83 = Universal CJ-5
05 = Open body
166561 = Sequential serial number Built November 1963 (1964 model year)

Most had a paint an trim tag on the passenger side firewall showing color and interior.

 

Check this out - just an example of what I mean.

http://www.jeep4x4center.com/knowledge-base/VIN-jeep-cj-1955-1971.htm

There are people that post here that can tell you what options your Jeep should have and what month it was made. I don't know how they do it though. But, using the commonly used decoder in that link mine Jeep does not match up. That is the one I as referring to really. Just seems like it is not very accurate.

Also, this is kind of what I mean "Built November 1963 (1964 model year)" - my Jeep is a 1965. It is on the title and I know the person who originally bought it, easy enough to believe though that it set on a lot somewhere for a year or so.

 

My VIN tells me that my CJ5 was built in March of 1960, and everything except the drivers seat, drivers windshield wiper and spare tire were optional. One of the options at the time was that tilt out windshield, or a 4sp tranny.

No top, no doors, no radio or roll bar. Either 15 or 16 inch wheels and tires. No heater.

 

A lot of research is how the people here can provide some of this info. There were very few "options" back then, and they were not documented in the VIN, only some in the paint and trim tag. Through experience, this group knows when the windshields changed, or when the fuel tank moved to the back, or when there were no front reflectors, hood mounted reflectors or fender mounted marker lights. As I said, none of this is indicated in the VIN. We've also accumulated month of manufacture estimates that aren't documented by Willys/Kaiser/AMC. I have never found an online VIN decoder or document that can provide the information this forum can provide. The CJ3B page is where the earliest month of manufacture information comes from.

That "decoder" you linked does not recognize the fact that Jeep VINs of this era can consist of 10, 11 or 13 digits. It is also woefully incomplete regarding the starting and ending serial numbers for each model. About the only additional information provided by the additional digits is right/left hand drive or F4/V6. Nothing else like color, interior, windshield configuration or anything else. You have a 10 digit VIN and what I showed you is all the information contained in the VIN, there is no more. It wasn't uncommon back then to title a vehicle as the year it was purchased, that doesn't make it a different model year vehicle. Like you said, it probably sat on a sales lot or at some time the title got an error in it.

 

Zoomer I understand how people know what years the windshields changed, ect - that is not what I am talking about at all. I have seen people claim they can tell you what options your Jeep had using just the VIN

If you look at the link I posted it does in fact list some of those options by year but as I pointed out it does not seem to work at all for my Jeep. That was the point of the post, the accepted VIN decoder seems to be wrong fairly often, I was seeing if that was other people's experience.

As far as the research about what options you could get did you realize that in 1965 you could get a CJ5 with a split window such as those used in Military Jeeps of that year? I sure didn't but I confirmed this afternoon that mine did in fact come from the factory with that windshield on it. I have a picture of the Jeep from the day it was delivered and I even saw the original purchase receipt which had the window listed

" It wasn't uncommon back then to title a vehicle as the year it was purchased, that doesn't make it a different model year vehicle."

Read my link, then read this thread and you will better understand what I am talking about, someone replied that my Jeep was build in 1963/4 during a certain time of year, yet the link I posted says my Jeep is a 1965 CJ5. I am trying to work out where the difference in replies comes from - people are looking this stuff up somewhere, these comments are not coming from learning different models, ect. I have been around Jeeps for over 40 years and been on these forums for over 8 years, so I get that people just know that stuff. My post is the replies that concern specifically VIN's - I am wondering if there is more to the VIN than I am lead to believe. There are certainly people working for Chrysler right now that says there is because I called them.

 

I did find this which is interesting, it is about Wagons but still interesting

"A new prefix code was phased-in starting sometime in 1963 (or 1964?) for Delivery/Traveller models, and 1964 for Wagons. Note that all 1965 models are actually left-over 1964 models that were re labeled by dealers."


http://wx4.org/to/wagons/usefulstuff/vin/vin.html

Also, using this link, the VIN interprets to produced in 1963, month N which I make November. That lines up with what was said earlier before in the thread making my 1965 CJ5 actually a 1963 CJ5 despite the year it was bought and titled

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Photos/SerialNumbers/SerialNosMonthly6365.gif

This GIF also helps to show some of the options I was talking about http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/Photos/SerialNumbers/ModelID67p5.gif

In general this, http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/SerialNos/SerialNosSixties.html begins to show what I mean but some people claim to be able to take it much further and I would like see a site showing how they do it


^ That is getting closer to what I am asking


Off topic, I found this interesting also - I know where two CJ-3B's are that are not on that list.

"Surviving CJ-3B Jeeps"

http://www.film.queensu.ca/cj3b/SerialNos/SerialNosEngine.html

 

I did read your link, and I don't see anywhere that your VIN decodes to 1965. The list on that site http://www.jeep4x4center.com/knowledge-base/VIN-jeep-cj-1955-1971.htm only goes up to 1961.

Starting in 1972 there was more information contained in the VIN, but prior to that there wasn't. There are different prefixes shown on the 3B page, but that is for different versions. ST/Chassis is Stripped Chassis model (no body), diesel versions obviously had diesel engines, CJ5A is the Tuxedo Park model etc. If you have an 8305 prefix, I don't think there is any more information. If you can find more, I'd be interested in learning about it.

Call back the people at Chrysler you talked to and have them tell you more than what was provided by the VIN decode I listed. Since you had them on the phone why didn't you ask?

Also, you probably already know this, but model years don't always allign with calendar years. Vehicles built in September are often the next "model year".

The 3B page is the best resource as far up as it goes. There is a signifacant gap in information between that time through 1971.

I don't doubt that you Jeep came with a split windshield. From what I understand, the manufacturer was fairly willing to accomodate special orders.

 

Actually, that url goes all the way to 1971 before the VIN swap. It does show mine as a 1965, but the other links I posted are way better

What was I suppose to ask them? I asked the guy how much they can gather from the VIN and he said - year and month it was made, options ordered and sometimes destination. I don't see anything that supports that but I have seen people post on this site claiming the same. I am just wondering why they say that - makes you wonder if it is indeed possible. The links I posted are far better than what I could find on the 3B page but your answer sort of answers what I am asking - which was where are people, on these boards, are getting their information from. I think it is likely they are pulling from the information I saw on the 3B board. I am not disputing anything I am trying to work out out people get the information. I would post and ask about it on the 3B board, since it is a fairly general question but the 3B board is out for me.

The thing about the windshield just surprised me, when I bought it I assumed that at some point it had just been replaced with what was around. Come to find out the Jeep was built with Panama as a destination and that is what they put on it. It also came with a heater but no blinkers of any kind nor seat belts.

 

I guess ask them to decode your VIN. If they have additional info, they should be able to tell you about your specific Jeep. Should be a good test as your's appears to be somewhat unique and you have access to the original purchaser.

Besides the 3B page there is VIN info in the factory service manual and also in the Jeep dealer data books. In all the sources I've researched I haven't come accross any additional info (but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

I must be missing the info on your's being a 1965 on that page you linked. I've reviewed it again and I still only see serial number info up through 1961 on that page even though it says 1955-1971 in the title. If you find out we can get additional info, please share your source with us.

 

I have the FSM and I never noticed VIN info in there. I will check that out.

I wonder if the Jeep dealer data books is where the dealer was getting their information from. I wonder if we have anyone that has access to them.

The link I shared, just read down right under the part the ends in 1961. Those charts are the VIN decoders. They go up to 71. You have to break them down into groups and skip digit 5 despite what it says. I think if the Jeep was an overseas Jeep digit 5 would count, not sure though

 

I may have misspoke on the FSM, I meant to say factory parts book.

 

When you say decode the VIN, this is what you get. You only get out what has been encoded in the numbers. There is no more information there.

The only way you get more info from the VIN is to use the sequential serial number to look up the build sheet in the factory records. I think it is profoundly unlikely that any of those records still exist after 50 years. Even if they did exist, they were likely never transcribed to computerized form, so you'd have to go to a filing cabin and look up the folder. No business would keep those bulky and monetarily valueless records around, and it's not the sort of thing that historians or hobbyists would preserve.

Also, Jeeps in this era did not have the yearly model revisions that cars did. Changes were implemented when they were ready, often in the middle of the car company's model year. So especially in the late 50s into the 60s era, assigning a model year to your Jeep is rather arbitrary. Do you use the build date? Do you use the sale date? It is far from precise.

Finally, the whole notion of encoding the drive train information in the VIN is a rather modern idea. VIN stands for "vehicle identification number" which is essentially the sequential serial number. Its main purpose is to uniquely identify the car for registration purposes, and tag each car for owner identification. Jeep did not start a year-specific VIN until 1972, when they adopted a VIN system similar to AMC cars. That still only tells you the most basic additional information about the car, ie engine, transmission and GVWR. Other option information would come from the build sheet, not the VIN.

 

You are still reporting a 10 digit VIN. The first four digits tell you if it is a CJ5, 6, or 3B open-body (no top), the last six are the sequential serial number. Doesn't give any other info than that. Any one telling you they can tell you which engine, what color paint job and how many hamster power the engine had are just blowing smoke.

You would have to have the original paperwork from the dealership in order to find out what your pre-AMC era Jeep came with. Every thing except the spare tire, drivers seat and drivers side windshield wiper was an option added by the dealer or the factory if you ordered it.

 

Simply put, you can never say never when it comes to a Jeep. We have addressed the model year being off on this forum every time someone buys a new to them Jeep and it doesn't physically match up to the title. The frame numbers do not always match the tub number and the tub tag is only held on by four screws. Jeeps in general were like a tractor or any piece of equipment in people's minds and nobody ever thought that they would exist in 5o years much less argue about the VIN numbers. Photo evidence i.e. factory assembly line photos show that Jeep may have used whatever parts that they had on hand that day. The ventilating windshield in front of another standard windshield is a common picture that pops up if you do a search. Do not get caught up in today's CSI forensic world trying to reference a much simpler time when records and numbers simply were not worried about.

 

I suspect there is some truth to that which is why I posted

However, look at the links I post, it is not entirely untrue

 

I thought the color code was written on the firewall (engine compartment behind golvebox)
THis is my 1959. Is "51" the color code?