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unstable driving... all over the place! scarry

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by pauldana, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. Oct 21, 2009
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    So... is it any good? leave it in or take it out? what are the pros and what are the cons? thx..
     
  2. Oct 21, 2009
    89diesel

    89diesel Broken!!!...Again

    Regina, SK, Canada
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2009
    Messages:
    38
    Its probably doing more harm than good on your Jeep.

    As the axle moves up and down, the leafs travel in a straight line. A tracbar tends to travel in an arc. With both, they are fighting against each other.

    There are cases where they could be made to work together. In extreme off-roading, the leafs can flex sideways causing the steering to possibly be damaged. A tracbar will prevent this. Also, if a heavy engine is used, (diesels, big V8's) some leafs cant handle the side-to-side stresses. A trade-off can be made, but, there is a substancial amount of geometry and engineering that must be addressed to make both work together.

    I'm no expert on this, but I have a mfg business where I have been designing, building and selling suspension components (including tracbars) for over 10 yrs.
     
  3. Oct 21, 2009
    80cj

    80cj Member

    Hawaii
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    549
    Judging from the questions you ask, I'm kinda wondering about this statement,. Not trying to flame anyone but someone with auto shop experience shouldn't have to ask all those questions.
     
  4. Oct 21, 2009
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41

    Well flame away.... I have done a little of that myself on the Vett forum, so bring on the guns... lol

    ask me about engines, rear-ends and even suspension on a street cars... I got you covered..... I have a beautiful 79 Vett that I have just got done with a complete rebuild and upgrade on a 383, transmission, suspension, braking and.... well lets say EVERYTHING has been changed and upgraded except for the paint and wheels.... my 383 (I built) puts down 425HP and 440TQ at the rear wheels on a Superflow chassis dyno (at the rear wheels).... not bad hugh?

    Now, my turn to flame a little.... The Auto mechanics field is vast, and I would say the person or mechanic that THINKS they know it all are probably some of the least intelligent people in this field, not to mention arrogant.
    old 72 Jeep suspensions, and its related problems are a far cry from standard street cars of today. And if you were reading the thread completely I stated that I do not do, nor have the equipment to do front end alignments and suspension, and this vehicle is unique.
    Secondly, If I can draw on the vast knowledge base here for answers why not ask them rather than go to so called "4*4" shops just to find out they know less than I do the majority of the time.... IE... the brilliant "4*4" shop that put it in in the first place stating that they thought it would cure all my blues..... it did not......... but thanks to the wonderful people here that have already gone through this and gave the proper answers to the problem, I can once again take my jeep, that I will be giving to my son, down the freeway at 70mph and feel safe. And this was something that several "Alignment" shops and "4*4" shops and "other" shops could not figure out.
    Now since I know you guys here on this forum live, eat, and breath Jeep... I felt this was the place to go.... Now. I live, eat, and Breath C3 Corvetts, and they also are an entirely different bread of car, and I could tell you every part on that car where it goes and how to upgrade it, but if I were to take my IRS suspension to a shop that does not work on these cars, I will probably have more work to do on it after they screw it up... you know what i mean.

    and I ask the last question because to me it seemed it would screw up the jeeps articulation.

    To all that earnestly helped me with this problem... THANK YOU, THANK YOU, Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2009
  5. Oct 21, 2009
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Riverside CA
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
    Messages:
    7,970
    only fools stop asking questions....

    it's how we all learn and I see nothing wrong with it

    glad you were able to get the Jeep fixed right.
     
  6. Oct 21, 2009
    pathkiller

    pathkiller Banned

    Lorton, VA
    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2005
    Messages:
    878
    X2. By the way, nothing productive ever came from a sentence that starts with "Not to flame anyone, but..."

    There is no flaming at ECJ5 and never will be. Only respectful Jeep related discourse. We all have various knowledge levels and if the omniscient Jeep God exists I haven't met him yet.
     
  7. Oct 21, 2009
    bkd

    bkd Moderator Supreme Staff Member

    K-Town Tenn.
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,294
    and part of the beauty of question and answer is it's here for all to learn from in the future......I've made myself a fool more than once in order to learn :beer:
    Jim S.
     
  8. Oct 22, 2009
    80cj

    80cj Member

    Hawaii
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    549
    I guess I was bit unruly. It seems as I get older I get less patient. Sincere apologies to all and especially pauldana.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  9. Oct 22, 2009
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    its all good... no sweat..... just happy i got it fixed...

    but still wondering if this brace does more harm than good..... does it have any effect on ride? got rancho shocks and it rides like a tank. p:)
     
  10. Oct 22, 2009
    lynn

    lynn Time machine / Early CJ5 HR Rep Staff Member

    Huntingdon PA
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,449
    If you have Rancho 5000s, they are stiff, too stiff for a light Jeep IMHO. I always liked Rancho 9000s, the adjustable ones. Set them somewhere below the 50% level for the street and no load, at or just over 50% for a full load of gear, and about 0 for slow offroading and obstacles. I ran them for many years on the CJ, and bought another full set for the LJ.
    The brace should have nothing to do with ride stiffness.
     
  11. Oct 22, 2009
    80cj

    80cj Member

    Hawaii
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    549
    In regards to shocks, I recently replaced a set of Skyjacker hydraulics with Doetschtech 3000 seriies hydraulics. I've noticed that bumps on the highway taken at speed are less noticeable with the new Doetschtechs. Pricing was good, too...less than $40.00. I try to stay away from nitrogen charged shocks as I feel the nitrogen pressurization just adds to stiffness, Jeeps being as light as they are. Unless, of course, you opt for something like the adjustable Rancho 9000's.

    Here's a link to Doetschtech's web site. http://www.doetsch-shocks.com/
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  12. Oct 23, 2009
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    Thank you both.... ok, my thread is turning a little now, and I was going to start another on ride stifness but maybe I can just get it done here...

    My current shocks are Rancho 3000.... non adjustable...the seem VERY stiff, they came with the new Rancho 2" lift leaf springs. does anyone have any thought on theses shocks for my CJ5? on my vett I run Bilstine Sports and for that car they are the BOMB!!! What would be a good shock that is not very stiff yet still gives good handling...? opinions?

    And I am still looking for more input on the Frame-to-axle Brace we have been talking about... thx... Paul:)
     
  13. Oct 23, 2009
    bkd

    bkd Moderator Supreme Staff Member

    K-Town Tenn.
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,294
    Paul on the shocks....I've used Napa brand Sensatracs (re badged Monroe's)since I've gotten the jeep, I've liked the ride they provide.....that being said I'll be putting Rancho 9000's on in the future for the adjustibility
    Jim S.
     
  14. Dec 31, 2009
    msarge

    msarge In Progress 1974 CJ5

    Hilliard, Florida
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Messages:
    175
    Under heavy articulation that bar works against the leave springs something has to give!My 74 had the same frame to axle trac BAR on it when I got it. it was attached to the front diff via a bracket that was using 3 of the bolts on the diff cover. 2 of the three bolts were broke off inside the diff telling me that it was working against the side to side movement of the leaf springs! So I removed the bar. I have the same "darting" wandering as you did. I have noticed that my frame slightly twists when the steering is turned and I read in your posts that you had some cracks, can you be more specific on where the cracks were?
    I am in the middle of the restoration and haven't gotten back on the steering (building a front bumper right now) but I would like more info on what you did to fix the problem.
     
  15. Dec 31, 2009
    msarge

    msarge In Progress 1974 CJ5

    Hilliard, Florida
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2006
    Messages:
    175
  16. Jan 1, 2010
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    just got back the transmission and transfer case. I sent it to "Herm the overdrive guy" in Washington. this is the second time to him. the transmission was sent back a second time due to a bad seal up front and a cracked front collier, the transfer case was making bad noise, send it back to him (second time also) and he states it had 2 broken teeth, so charged me $345.... keep in mind this jeep was only driven less than 100 miles around town....and I was charged for this. a bit of a rav here..... :mad::mad:

    anyway... just got the transmission and transfer case back in and will have it on the road this tuesday, i will drive the jeep for a couple of days in a row to get used to the feel, then remove this rod and continue to drive it and report back on difference.

    Ok... now to give you my opinion to this point... ALIGNMENT proper and correct alignment ...... if you have a lift you have to change and correct all three.. toe, caster, and camber... ALL 3... you have to find the old guys... the ones that have been doing this for like... ever... the ones that know ... if they have not done it before, go somewhere else...

    ASK here about alignment specs... do NOT go with "factory" specs unless your jeep has NO mods... i mean even tires. tell the alignment shop the alignment specs you want, (That you got here) not how they want.

    I feel the brace thing was nothing more than a band-aid for the real problem.

    So, first change ALL bushings, then check for and fix cracks (mine were small ones up by the power steering box, but I also had and fixed a big one about 10 years ago on the frame by the transfer cross brace) then alignment.

    I believe this will fix most all problems, but I also replaced the steering box as well, and I am sure this also tightened up the steering.

    Currently, I can do as another poster stated, I can run down the freeway at 65 and drive with my knees and feel safe..... very stable now, very happy


    I will report back end of the week about how the jeep feel with and without the brace.... what are your feelings and opinions on how it feel with and without the brace?

    o, lastly, I can see that this brace will also hinder articulation, and give direct feedback of road to frame shock, via bypassing the shocks and leaf springs.... this just seems geometrically way wrong... a band aid.
     
  17. Jan 12, 2010
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    update as promised.

    Ran the jeep for 3 days with the axial to frame bar/brace... again, when you hit any bumps you feel them very sharp throughout the whole Jeep.

    Removed the brace...

    Results.... MUCH better ride, much softer, much nicer, YES A BIG DIFFERENCE!! this brace is nothing but a band-aid to cover over the real problems like frame cracks and bad bushings and the like.

    The steering has become a little less reactive and a little more mushy now though... this is due to frame flex at the front of the leaf springs. after removing the brace I was better able to diagnose the real problems still left after all the work performed so far.

    The next step now is that I will have a special bar/brace fabricated that will go from the left to the right leaf spring perch mounted on the front most portion of the frame. This is where I am still having a lot of frame flex, due in-part to the 2" lift. if these perches are made solid and stable I THINK this will be the final fix????????

    Has anyone done this? pic?

    I have also heard of people reversing the leaf spring so the shackles are in the back instead of the front, If my next fix does not do the job, this is the direction I will be going...

    will repost later with pics of the new fabbed brace. :D:D
     
  18. Jan 13, 2010
    lynn

    lynn Time machine / Early CJ5 HR Rep Staff Member

    Huntingdon PA
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,449
    What you should notice without the brace is a bit more "body roll" in corners. That's a feeling you'll get used to.

    Search here and elsewhere, even google, for CJ steering box brace. Usually a good idea for larger tires. I know Mountain Off Road Enterprises has them.
    Does your CJ have a plate joining the frame rails between the bumper and the grille? If not, consider adding one. It will help stiffen the rails.

    The "shackle reversal" can improve driving manners a bit, but it reduces the natural tendency for the axle to climb an obstacle as spring compression now moves the axle backward instead of forward. May also introduce "nose dive" under hard braking. I researched it, and chose to keep the shackles up front. YMMV...
     
  19. Jan 13, 2010
    hudsonhawk

    hudsonhawk Sponsor

    Dallas, TX
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,701
    Try a winch plate across the front to stiffen the frame rails. No need to fabricate a special brace and you can mount a winch to it.
     
  20. Jan 15, 2010
    pauldana

    pauldana pauldana

    Lancaster, Ca
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    41
    Not much body role, but a much kinder ride... I will NEVER reinstall that brace,,, band aid
    got a web site for this steering box brace?
    Well, I guess the reverse spring thing... guess thats not going to happen now... thx.. p:)

    bought a wench for christmas, Will be installing it in the next 2 weeks... now i am even more excited,... i will report on this also...


    Thx...
     

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