Starter Motor question

Have been getting 'sluggish' starts recently - particularly when the engine is hot. Finally it just wouldn't start this weekend after I accidently choked it down a couple times on the trail. I think I may have finally burned out the starter or solenoid. When I turn the key to start I get nothing - no sound, no clicking, nothing - so guessing at minimum the solenoid is toast and maybe that is it. I pulled the starter and solenoid today and figure I should get it tested at FLAPS. Anything specific with regard to getting a starter tested that would be helpful to know?

Also, I believe its the Prestolite starter from the shape of the solenoid. Is it recommended to upgrade to Delco (reman from RockAuto or the like) if the starter is toast? If its just the solenoid then maybe just replace it and keep the Prestolite starter?

many thanks,

 

Battery and cables all new and tested when I replaced the alternator a month or so ago.

Starter didn't move at all when bench tested at FLAPS - either when run through the solenoid or directly through to the starter. So new starter it is....the FLAPS only had rebuilt Delco's so I went with that. They are taking my core even though its Prestolite, so final cost is $58 with lifetime warranty. Didn't look into it, but guessing that was as good as finding a local rebuild shop.

So question: The distributor came with shims - how do I know if I need to use them? I initially put it on without shims (none were on the original) and it started right up, but am concerned that the starting gear could be to close to the flywheel and cause damage. Any way to know?

thanks

 

I'm assuming you meant <Starter> there - If your concerned, you can do some measuring from the face of the starter to the flywheel while you have the gear in and out. You can also just pull it after a few starts and see a wear pattern (some machinist dye if needed). Typically, I only need them if I get a grinding on the start up, or it won't fit in the mounting. Probably used one shim in the 40 years I've been messing with the V6s.

 

Starter seems to be working fine - did not shim it. Everyone seems to say I there is no way to 'miss' the sound if it needs shimming. I know what a grinding starter sounds like, but this one gives some extra 'whine' right after start up. Might be the difference in how the Delco vs the Prestolite works. Its one of those things that if I didn't know how it used to sound, and heard it for the first time, probably wouldn't think anything of it. Going to drive around today for some errands in town and then recheck mount and electrical connection (redid some of the connector) and call it good assuming it stays the same. I was honestly a bit startled with how much grunt/power the motor starts with now - it jumps to life. Guess I was used to weak starts between a poor fuel pump and starter.

Yes its good advice about holding on to the core until absolutely sure which is why I haven't returned it yet. I was just factoring in the core refund when pricing out the options initially and was surprised when they were okay with accepting a Prestolite core for a Delco unit. Maybe it will be problem when I actually return it, but the parts guys know me pretty well and said just put in the box and close it and no-one will look at it too closely.

 

Arrrgghhhh- okay no idea if this is related to the new starter or completely separate: jeep starts up great, drive it a block and it dies immediately at first stop. Thought it was still a bit cold and did not have it choked at all, but kept doing it. Wouldn't hold idle and then started misfiring and running disturbingly rough - barely running and had to hold throttle above 1500 rpm just to keep it running rough. If I hadn't just replaced the starter I would first look at fuel supply and spark etc. Considering I replaced fuel pump in July - that would be frustrating to have that problem again. Its been about 5 months since I went through and cleaned up the distributor, advance mechanisms, adjusted points and so on...have to check all again but this seems more significant than basic timing. Maybe more significant like timing chain and gear....nylon teeth gone bad... but want to rule out the starter since that is the main change.

Is there any possibility this is related to starter replacement? Could this happen if the starter is not withdrawing enough and staying in mesh with the flywheel? Another concern with the starter replacement has to do with grounding...The original Prestolite starter had a mounting screw and bracket on the top that also mounted to the engine block. The batter ground cable went to engine block here as well. With the new Delco unit - there is no threaded screw hole to attach to bracket - its only mounted by the two bolts to the bell housing. I left the battery ground to engine block where it was assuming the starter didn't need to ground through the bracket - I guess I could ground the starter to the block off the rear terminal with a strap. WOndering if the starter is not grounded correctly could it affect spark from the coil or something strange like that.

This is sort of secondary but falls out of my investigation today but apparently I do not have any grounding strap between the engine block and frame. Never noticed this before but seems to me there should be a grounding strap from the engine block where the neg battery cable mounts to somewhere on the frame. Am I missing something?

Frustrated...time to walk away for a bit...maybe the whole weekend even...

 

Kind of what I thought - but just wanted to make sure. I know enough to just get myself into trouble sometimes without knowing what I don't know. Didn't know if somehow a bad ground might cause some issue with the coil for producing spark. But, looks like its back to troubleshooting the engine - normally I get a few weeks after a repair to enjoy it before the next thing breaks. Didn't even get a block this time.

 

Are you talking about the +alternator wire? I do have new one of those from when replacing the alternator a couple months ago. The alternator and battery+ are the only wires to the positive solenoid terminal.

Does anyone have a photo of the engine block to frame ground strap next to the right side motor mount? I am probably blind, but it doesn't appear there is one in this case.

Checked some basic fuel stuff today: blew air through lines back into tank and replaced fuel filter just in case, but no improvement. Did not have chance to check fuel pressure or supply but thinking more along the lines of spark issue after checking timing. I can barely get a consistent timing light on plug wire 1, and when I do get the light, the timing mark isn't even visible on the timing scale. As a simple test, other wires showed slightly more consistent timing light just to see if they are firing, but not great.

What next? try to reset timing of course, but is there a way to identify problematic plugs or wires or distributor/cap/rotor or coil, timing chain etc? I did points, timing and advance mechanisms 6 months ago and it was smooth right up to last week. I can probably check wire continuity with multi-meter and just replace plugs but concerned about coil or timing chain issues.

thanks

 

this is exactly how its set up.

 

Okay- so with a direct power wire from BATT+ to ignition and so forth, I do not need any other connections to the Starter solenoid? Basically, when looking at some wiring diagrams from FSM and other threads here, there should be a wire from the solenoid 'R' terminal to the ignition. (FWIW I have switched to internal regulated 3 wire alternator) I have nothing on the 'R' terminal - and did not with the old Prestolite starter either (see pic). There is only BATT+ and alternator wire to the positive terminal and the green ignition key switch wire to the 'S' terminal.



This all seem correct?

Definitely missing an engine block to frame ground - will set that up this afternoon. Will go from the block mount that has the neg Battery cable just behind/above starter motor to somewhere nearby on frame near the engine mount. Although this seems somewhat necessary - its probably never had one since I got the Jeep a couple years ago so guessing its not the problem.