Suicidal Ramsey Winch

So, I bought this 1974 CJ5 with a broken Ramsey 200 PTO winch. The PTO is also made by Ramsey. When I took the broken winch apart I saw that the shaft had literally been twisted to the point that it had broken in two. I was able to find a used replacement winch in good condition and I installed it. It seems to work well, except for one potentially fatal bad behavior. After use, I reel in the slack cable and snug it up and leave the winch clutch engaged so that it doesn't free-wheel, then disengage the PTO. BUT...the winch apparently continues to turn and wind in cable at an imperceptible speed, even with the PTO disengaged. It's only after the jeep has been driven for several miles that I notice that the winch has continued to tighten and tries to pull the hook and cable clamps between the drum and the winch mount, to the point that the cable has been compressed. I have backed it off a few times and tried again, but like before, after several miles of driving the winch has tightened again. I'm sure that if I had not noticed it that eventually the winch would have self destructed. With the PTO disengaged I can turn the shaft that connects the PTO to the winch easily in either direction with my hand. So maybe it's just vibration and the "harmonics of the road" that continue to turn the shaft?
Has anyone experienced this kind of thing before, and found a solution for it?

Thanks,

 

Sounds like the PTO is being driven even when out. Harmonics, would not put that much strain or drive on the system, I don't believe. Something is going on in the PTO gear box.

 

You have 2 ways to disconnect the winch, the lever on the winch and the PTO control inside. If both are disengaged, it shouldn't be happening. Then again I know more about Koenig winches than Ramseys, not that there should be that much differance.

 

This sounds dangerous, unless it's just drag in the pto case. If it was "in gear" it would self destruct within a few yards. Even so, compressing the cable is not good.

Does the winch not have a disconnect clutch "hold" brake on it? The koenigs have a friction pad that applies to stop freewheeling.

 

I disengage both levers and use a ratchet strap (genuine Harley Davidson) to keep the winch drum from turning. The brake pad on the Koenig is a bit of a joke, I suppose it might have done it's job 53 years ago. I've never seen a brake system on a Ramsey unless they have some sort of internal set up.

 

Hey, thanks for the feedback! Unfortunately, the Ramsey doesn't have a "brake pad". There are a couple of internal spring-loaded phenolic discs that press against one of the ends of the spool, but just enough to keep some friction drag when you're pulling out cable. I can't just leave the clutch at the winch in the "free" position or the cable will get all loose and cross itself. So until I figure out what is causing this, and I agree that something has to be happening at the PTO, I guess I will have to find some way to "lock" the drum while the clutch lever at the winch is also disengaged. I'm not sure how you use the ratchet strap to keep the drum from turning. Do you just put it around the cable to keep it from un-coiling?

 

Yeah, but mine works just right with a new brake pad.

 

My strap is around the drum and front bumper, after cinching up the cable so it stays snug, you have to put the strap on so it retains the tension, I would post a picture but, again, photobucket isn't working with me tonight. Depending on the version of your winch, overwind or underwind, Er, does the cable feed in at the top or bottom of the drum? It sort of determines how you apply the strap so as you tighten it, it keeps things tight.
Every new Harley Davidson came with 2 neat ratchet straps, one about 2 ft long, the other is about 4 ft long. They don't give them to you unless you ask for them. It might be worth a trip to the local dealer. My local guy has a few boxes of them in the shop. I think I have about 6 of them now, quite handy things to keep around.

 

What gear oil are you using in the transfercase? If too thick (heavy a weight) it can drive the pto gear even though the pto is in the neutral position. Much like how a torque converter in an automatic transmission works. In effect it creates a fluid coupling and continues to drive the driven gear of the pto unit

 

I just reread the first post, a '74 with a PTO? Sort of an unusual beast, I thought all of the CJ Jeeps were running D 20's by then so the PTO is uncommon. I could be wrong, I usually am.
The broken drive shaft sort of makes me think that something isn't right in your PTO shifter, something isn't disengaging.
The drive shaft on my Koenig rattles and shakes enough that I know if I haven't taken the PTO lever out of gear or if something has knocked it into gear. Then again thats why the dog clutch on the winch isn't engaged.
Good luck with your winch, I do know a few people with Ramseys, they are all on older vehicles but I hope they don't have some similar problems. Let us know if you figure out the answer.

 

Ditto. You gotta ask yourself, how did the first one get destroyed...? Don't let it happen again, maybe at speed on the highway.

 

Interesting thought about the gear oil. It does take very little rotational force on the driveshaft to turn the worm screw. Until I figure this out, the ratchet strap seems like the easiest temporary fix. That way I can leave the winch clutch disengaged and even if the shaft turns, the drum won't turn, so I can drive the jeep and the winch will not tear itself apart. A previous owner has installed a "safety lock" on the PTO lever that is a simple, but effective, hinge with one wing bolted to the floor and the other wing has a slot cut in it that flops over the lever when it is in the "disengaged" position. That's a good idea. But I find that if I take off the safety lock I can move the lever forward about another 3/4 inch. I think I'll try making a modification to safety lock (hinge) so that it holds the PTO lever in that more forward position. I found an article and some photos of a Ramsey PTO with a Dana 20 PTO Adapter installed on a 70's era jeep pickup. From the photos it appears that's probably what I have on this 74 CJ. I'd like to see more detail about how it engages/disengages. Does anyone know where I can find exploded drawings of a Ramsey PTO. I couldn't find one on the Ramsey site.
Thanks!

 

About every 6 months one of the D20 PTO's comes up for sale. I have no idea how the shifter works on it. Could worn engine/transmission mounts change the geometry of the shifter?

 

JFGI --- Google or Bing "image" search.

For example
http://www.ramseypdfs.com/owners_search_pdfs/912405-0106-U.pdf
http://www.zips.com/Store_schematics.aspx?CAT=51&SCHEM=88

 

On my ramsey, I always leave the winch disengaged just as a safety. I've never had a problem with the winch unspooling itself.

 

Thanks for your response. This is a great website! I modified the homemade lever lock (hinge) to hold the lever in a more forward position. And I've disengaged the clutch at the winch and plan to leave it like that. I think, as Gnome said, it probably won't unspool. But just to be safe I'm going to just put a strap around the drum also. I'm comfortable that's a safe way to go.

 

The Koenig never unspooled enough cable to be an issue, just the hook banging on the bumper was irritating on a trail.
I admit, I have forgotten to take the PTO out when relocating while winching, some snapped cable and added bends in the front bumper. The Warn M6000 on the Commando has never loostened up, even with the brake off.

 

With the engine off and all four wheels blocked both ways on a flat surface, release the emergency brake, place everything OUT OF GEAR, climb under the Jeep, can you turn the pto shaft by hand?
If not then the pto shaft is NOT disengaged from the transfer case

That would be my start in this fishing expedition

 

I would respectfully disagree UnkelDale. I'd suggest leaving the transfer case and transmission in gear and the winch and pto in neutral. If the transfer case and/or transmission is in neutral he may still be able to turn the pto shaft and it won't tell him if the pto really is fully disengaged.

 

Geeze, Nickmil, right in the middle of my response...I do agree with your last post.
I think that part of the problem is most people don't understand how the D20 PTO works, yeah it's not the same as a D18. There is a gear than can be driven by the other hydraulic preassures in the unit. Enough to suck the cable into the drum? Your viscsoty comment could be a clue.
Hopefully the OP can strap things down and not have more issues.