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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Nov 26, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    SHE WENT AROUND THE M-FING BLOCK! After issues and failing to get it run in on Wed, I ran it in yesterday, but had some various challenges (especially working solo) - hopefully none of them detrimental to the engine in the long term. A few things needed to be addressed after that, but got the timing set good enough, clutch adjustment so it will actually go into gear, change of oil and filter (which looked fine - no metal sparkle). Its running only the shorty block hugger headers - so everyone knows of course, including a couple harder pulls on the slightly bigger street around the neighborhood. With no trans tunnel either - its so loud in the cab I can't really tell if the engine is running right, and probably enough exhaust fumes to make you sick right quick. But it went around the damn block!....I like how the sm465 shifts. I've been planning on paying for shop work to do the exhaust - so will give a call in on Monday to see how soon they can do it, but it won't really matter as I'm leaving on Wed for the winter. Its dripping way more oil out of the RMS than I want to think about - at least I am pretty sure its the RMS and not the pan gasket...that is a big downer. I am going to go drink, both because it went around the m-fing block and because I can't even install a decent RMS on an engine stand....I'd get drunk, but have to pick my wife up at the airport at 11 tonight...there is time to get sober before then right?
     
  2. Nov 26, 2021
    timsresort

    timsresort Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor

    South Lake Tahoe CA
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    Well, congratulations on the drive, but sorry about the seal. I can relate. And if it were me, I'd be more worried about what my wife would do to me for not showing up at the airport, than what the judge does for the DUI. Wait until tomorrow is my advice.
     
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  3. Nov 26, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 WRPD855 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    Have one beer now, wait an hour Get drunk at the airport and you'll have a driver.
     
  4. Nov 26, 2021
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Post Falls, ID
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    Congrats! :bananatool:
     
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  5. Nov 27, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    So I am not sure what I think of the headers....I used them because I had them and they seem to fit really well - probably slightly better than a traditional ramshorn manifold, but they are loud and hot and will need to eventually be coated or wrapped in some way. Its impossible to judge how noisy they truly are given they are currently flowing directly to open air, but its the red hot temps they are creating under the hood that I don't like. I don't have any sound or heat insulation on the firewall, and while that may improve a bit at some point, I am thinking traditional manifolds may make it a bit quieter and less hot in the cab. I had headers on the cj when I got it, but after a year or so the headers rusted out/cracked, I went to iron manifolds and like them....thinking of doing the same here. Just have to figure this out before getting any exhaust work done and see if they will fit.
     
  6. Nov 27, 2021
    Renegade ll

    Renegade ll Member

    Thayne Wyoming
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    Feb 17, 2013
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    James your wagon looks amazing. You take great pride in your work. Everything is well thought out. Keep up the good work.
     
    Buildflycrash and FinoCJ like this.
  7. Nov 27, 2021
    jzeber

    jzeber Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Morgan Hill, Ca
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    Is there an underlying reason they are so hot? Or is it just because the exhaust is building up with nowhere else to go?
     
  8. Nov 27, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    I think its the nature of thin wall, tubular headers - they get HOT - like discoloration, almost glowing red hot.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  9. Nov 27, 2021
    jzeber

    jzeber Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Morgan Hill, Ca
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    That's not good. Do you have manifolds you can try? It might make sense to go that route and at least give them a try.
     
  10. Nov 27, 2021
    timsresort

    timsresort Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor

    South Lake Tahoe CA
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    I would check timing. Too retarded would do this.
     
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  11. Nov 27, 2021
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Post Falls, ID
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    Yeah, super hot isn’t normal unless WOT. Timing, or too lean of a mixture will do this.
     
  12. Nov 27, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    initial timing is almost 10BTDC and some amount of mechanical is coming in - it goes off my scale of course, but seems about normal. Ported vacuum advance is connected. Plugs suggest it might be running a bit lean...not sure how to richen it up....I already increased the primary jets up to the OEM 71s and it has the OEM primary rods. Considering the high elevation, it should run fuel rich if anything.

    Whatever the paint or coating that was on the headers burned completely off - it was old and may have just been some plain old paint to protect from corrosion during storage etc....So if I keep using them, I am going to have to pull them and coat them or VHT paint. The VHT paint worked really well on the cj iron manifolds, but not sure it would do as well on the smooth headers. Ceramic coating would be an option I guess.....
     
  13. Nov 27, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
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    You could be lean due to no back pressure. Its hard to gauge plugs without running at speed and cutting the engine clean. I'd get the exhaust on and your leaks sorted before fine tuning.
    Congratulations on your milestone! Its a great feeling. I went through the leak stage on first fire and run, the fine tuning as well. It will come together keep plugging away.
     
  14. Nov 27, 2021
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    I put silver VHT paint on my headers when I installed them. On the front part of the headers, about the first 1/3rd of the length coming off the engine, the paint is brittle and will flake off with just a fingernail scratch. Further down the pipes the paint is holding up better.
     
  15. Nov 27, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 WRPD855 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    Do you have a vacuum and compression guage handy? Look for inconsistencies and vacuum leaks, high idle.
    Headers shouldn't be an issue today. Are all the exhaust bits secure?
    And even if you change the exhaust to manifolds later they will have the bulk of the work done.
     
  16. Nov 28, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    I've never figured out how to do an RMS properly I guess....This was the first one I did on the engine stand - seemed so easy and followed the direction from the Atherthon and Schreib book (which are pretty much everyone else's recommendations) to as best I could - and it it leaks worse than any I've ever had! Its a 2-piece neoprene seal that I offset the mating seam from the block/cap seam and dabbed RTV on the mating surfaces etc...oh well....will have to replace it the hard way from under the vehicle and drop the pan and loosen the crank - I would actually consider paying the $200 dollars to have a shop do it I hate it doing it so much and never have any real success with trying to push/roll the upper half in place. I used the fancy re-usable fel-pro 1 piece pan gasket so hopefully that won't be such a hassle. Just frustrating as there isn't a drop leaking from the gasket and it was tedious getting it torqued down evenly even on the stand.

    I do...I have a set of ramshorn manifolds. They are correct for a early 70s truck 350, but they are still the smaller collector at 2" instead of the high performance 2.5" collector at the bottom. I probably won't ever be in the rpm range that headers are a 'performance' upgrade, but as its geared a bit low (4.27s) without an OD and only 30" tires, its going run some 'higher' rpms on the highway cruising. The ramshorn's supposedly flow well, and the shorty block hugger headers aren't like long tubes so performance differences is probably a wash. The fitment was really the advantage of using them. I am going to try some test fitting today of both and see what is best - after doing all the build on the stand, its frustrating to have to go back to doing this in the engine bay with all the fenders and accessories on. If I choose to keep the headers, then I will probably take them to a local ceramic coating shop to get them done - internet lore suggests this will reduce under hood temps significantly and hopefully keep them from rusting out so bad - estimates look like $150-200.
     
  17. Nov 28, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I don't know if you can find one these days, but I have had really good results for Fel-Pro 2912 rear main seals. Replacing those isn't that big a deal and you can reuse your pan gasket (a great improvement over the stock style). I'm guessing 2 to 3 hour job.
     
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  18. Nov 28, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    I'll check for that gasket....I am not sure what exact number I used previously - it came with the fel-pro complete engine gasket kit I used. 2-3 hr job - I wish, you don't know how slow and complicated I make everything! The last one I did (which didn't do a lot of good) took me a lot longer....it'll probably take me 2 hours just to get old seal upper half of the seal out and the new one in place. I leave the crank in place, just loosen it a bit to let drop enough to release the upper seal, but its a fight. If I knew a good way to re-install the crank when on my back, I just remove it, but its way too heavy for me to manage - and risks damage to the journals.
     
  19. Nov 28, 2021
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
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    I did the Buick 3x so dont sweat it. When the second leaked like a sieve I did some deep diving. Seems my crank ( 20/20) had probably been turned / polished likely more than once. Micrometer showed me just enough under that the FelPro was marginal in ID. I found an Enginetech seal that was a few thousand tighter ID and the material was a little less hard.
    Its still an occasional spotter but the dipstick doesnt move. Most of that is a pesky ps valve cover that weeps at higher rpm from a back corner ( 3100 rpm at 55mph, 50+ lbs on the gauge :shrug:) You may want to crawl under with a flashlight while someone runs it up. A valve cover or intake could still be the culprit.
     
  20. Nov 28, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    You have to pull either the engine or the clutch/transmission to completely remove the crank. The cam cover and water pump obviously also have to come off. Way more work.
     
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