Dauntless Build Questions And An Update.

Firstly, the TA timing cover showed up this week. I am very happy with it. Machine work looks to be top notch and while I haven't assembled the oil pump yet a premilary check says my clearance on the gears should fall in about. 003ish.
The distributor could sit a touch deeper but it's acceptable.
They use the same casting as the Rock Auto covers but far better workmanship.

Now questions,
I have a new Comp-Cam 268 grind camshaft that came with my motor. It's listed as street-strip.
What would I be gaining/ using by using that as opposed to a stock grind?
I'm running 5:38 gears on the ground so speed is not my goal obviously. I'm more concerned with losing low end power. Considering the cost of a new cam I'll most likely end up using it. Just wondering what to expect?

Next question,
I need new lifters. I assume stock lifters will be compatible with that camshaft.
Most places are selling Sealed Air or Melling. Are they any good? I've heard they have both been having quality issues lately. TA has Johnson lifters which I haven't heard any bad word on. I also haven't gotten a price on them yet.
So if they are unaffordable, what are your experiences with Sealed Air and Melling?

 

I don’t have an answer for you on cam performance. If you have the Comp Cam, I would use their lifters.

 

I looked into that, I think they are selling rebranded Sealed Air lifters? It's an option but there was something that turned me away when I was looking at them. Been a while I can't remember just what it was.

Camshaft I have has a manufacture date of 2009 quality standards have changed a lot since then.

 

268 and 252 is what I've seen in the builds here. guys are running it on the Rubicon and such just fine. The issue is that not all cams are the same profile.

My 4.3 has a 269 intake 284 exhaust. It's fun.

 

I've used Comp Cams for years, but the 252H kit I bought for my Dauntless rebuild was a disappointment. One of lifters had a damaged component inside and it stuck down at startup. Had to R&R the bad lifter right off the bat. I think their quality has gone down over the years. But, after fixing that issue, it runs great.

A couple pictures of the problem.

 

I worked at an old school speed shop for 9 years, and IMO that's a pretty big cam for such a small engine. It'll run great at higher RPM but I think you'll lose some of the low end grunt that the 225 is known for.

 

Some good info here from when I did my cam.

http://www.earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index.php?threads/137355/

 

Cam does look a bit aggressive.
Basic Operating RPM Range:
1,800-5,800ange.

Given the heavy V6 flywheel, I like cams that start at idle and pull up into the 3500/4000 range.
Something else, the more aggressive the cam the more wear on the lobes. Given the low antifriction content of modern oils, that might be something to think about as well.

 

The cam you have may be a bit aggressive for a vehicle like a CJ, but it depends on how you intend on using your Jeep. You may consider advancing the cam, typically 4 degrees, if your crank gear has three keyway choices (+, 0, -). This will result in bringing the hp/tq lower in the rpm band, at the expense of top-end power. Most Jeeps aren’t driven using the high rpm band, unless you’re into sand drags. I have used the 252 degree, 112 “wide” lsa cam which helps low-end torque. What lsa is your 268 cam?

As far as lifters (I think you mean “Sealed Power”), quality has gone away in the past decade, for the most part. In the old days, these were chilled iron, and the “hardness” was compatible with cast iron cams so that neither component was harder than the other, resulting in a long life once properly broken in. Today, there are inconsistencies in the hardness (both cam and lifter), plus most oils don’t have zinc additives needed for flat-tappet cams due to the zinc clogging catalytic converters. As a result, cams seem to wear severely in under 25,000 miles. Sometimes only two or three lobes/lifters wear away while the others are fine. Yes, high valve spring pressures can contribute, but in engines I’ve built, this was not the cause of premature wear.
In the past, Sealed Power and Melling were quality choices, but they are hit-and-miss today, as well as other “good” brands. The last couple engine I have built (its been about 4 years), I’ve used Johnson lifters, so far with good results. I have been buying “old stock” brand-name lifters from the 1980’s occasionally when I see them on eBay (I know the old packaging). I hope you’re sitting down when you see TA’s prices (I hope I’m wrong). You can likely get them for less from Summit or on-line.
-Donny

 

Way too much cam for your purpose. It's a pita to get them to idle decently much below 1k. Backing the idle screw down on the carb can mess with the air bleeds etc.
Comp is also known for some grinds having a smaller base circle so you need to watch your pushrods and preload.
Frankly get something milder.

 

Thanks everyone for the info I guess I'm just going to bite the bullet and shop around for a stock grind cam and Johnson lifters. Will probably go with TA but that might change once I get them on the phone and get a price.
As far as the duration, lift etc... I know what the numbers mean but I'm lost as to how to interpret them as far as performance goes. Which is why I asked here.

I definitely want to keep that low end and low idle.
One other question for now,
Should I go with a high volume oil pump or stay stock? The engine is a new build and I'm wondering if the high volume pump might throw to much pressure?

My block and heads should be back from the machine shop at the end of the week. I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions as things progress.

 

There are a number of manufactures that have an "RV" grind. These are an improvement over the stock cam but runs from off idle to somewhere in the 4K zone. Might try one of them.

High volume pumps increase volume not pressure. The pressure is controlled by the bypass spring and while you can increase it by swapping springs, you can keep the stock spring as well.

A pump will move as much oil as the rotating gears can push. Once the pump gets to regulated pressure (usually about 40PSI), the bypass opens and dumps the excess oil (pressure) back into the pan.

If there is wear in the engine or you do a lot of SLOW speed (RPM) wheeling, the oil pressure can drop because the pump speed drops. A high volume pump moves more oil at these lower speeds which increases pressure, but never above the regulated mark set by the spring.

I'm a big advocate of HV pumps. I've run one in my CJ since the late 80's and have bee very happy. I do a lot of very low speed "idle" style wheeling where the tach needle is bouncing off the peg. The oil pressure never drops below 20PSI on my engine.

If you don't experience these conditions, and your engine is tight, you may not need or want one.

If you decide to get one, you will want to install it with the timing chain cover off or on the engine stand if you can. It requires drilling two guide pin holes and that can be a chore on your back under the rig.

 

That low speed crawl is what I'm aiming for.
Looks like the TA camshaft has the the extra keyway to retard or advance it.
They are pretty good on the phone and it seems like they go out of their way to make sure you get exactly what you want.

I have both the Melling stock and high volume oil pump kits.
I used a stock kit on the tired motor I have now when I did the timing chain.
It seems to throw pretty good pressure, a little better than 20 psi at idle and that's with the gear clearance being at the high-end. .006 I think it was. With the new timing cover and the stock pump it's looking like I will be around .003/.004 clearance.

I'll have to think on it a bit, will probably go with the high volume.
Thanks for the explanation.

 

If you already have the pump, my recommendation is to install it, especially if you can do it without the engine being installed.

 

6-8 weeks back order on a camshaft.
It appears Melling is the only one left making them and other companies are just rebranding. I was also told that Comp Cams will most likely no longer be making them.

 

Up to the last build, I've always used the high volume/high pressure big block pumps in my small block Chevys for the same reason. You still had 40 psi at 300 rpms even when warm. The down side of that is a lot larger load on the camshaft and distributor gears and loss of some efficiency constantly running against the bypass. On the 225, you gain less unless modifying the oil passages. There should still be some great posts here by Tarry99 concerning that aspect.

On my last sbc build, I stuck to the high volume small block pump because that engine has an 8620 custom ground steel cam and a composite distributor gear that I don't think would much appreciate that large extra loading.

 

That’s not what I wanted to hear…I saw comp
Cams 252 had an expected ship date of 2 months. Which cam had the long lead time?

 

The load never goes above a stock pump running the same bypass spring. The only added load is the "stock" load being lower in the RPM range, and that still isn't above the stock pump when it hits the bypass.

When I rebuilt my 225, it ran 40 PSI at idle without the HV pump. What the engine did was drop down to 10 PSI or less when the engine almost stalls negotiating an obstacle. The HV pump ran that back up into the 30 or so PSI range at the same RPM's. It still runs 40PSI (stock pressure) throughout the rest of the RPM range. What it does now is dump more oil back into the crank case once the bypass opens.

I'm sure there may be some minuscule added load due to the larger gears spinning and/or some added pressures running a high RPM motor up high in the operational band, but for our application, the added load should be little to none.

 

Every single place I contacted was 6-8 weeks out.
I ordered the melling sbc8 from summit as they had a ship date of March 10th but I'm expecting an email that will push that out to the 6-8 weeks like everyone else, plus everything on their website that isn't in stock had the same March 10th ship date.

I'm actually considering buying a spare when they come back in stock, just in case.

 

This is not correct, the load increases in the system because every ounce of fluid must be pressurized. If it were a pilot operated relief than the excess oil is bled off without too much added heat and energy but our basic spring and plunger system does increase the load with added pump displacement or pressure. It's just a matter that it takes one hp to move 1gpm at 1000psi (or was it 500psi) anyway it's less than anything we could feel, but it is there and if you are cold starting molasses than it might take a few ponys to move the oil up to the relief and it is extra load / wear on the timing set before pressure is lubricating them.