1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

New EFI Option - Looks Like 3 Good Players Now

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Warloch, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Jul 9, 2020
    oddfirejeeper

    oddfirejeeper Active Member

    Hamilton, MI
    Joined:
    May 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,253
    on steep inclines i would really have to work it hard to stay running. The inclines i run all you see is sky when you go up and kinda hard to stay on the trail when you can't see it going up. if it stalled there was no starting it until i coasted all the way down
    this is where efi shines like the sun. some trails i have to put the winch line on top of the hill so i don't roll backwards. i do that now after going backwards once.
     
  2. Jul 22, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,559
    A buddy and I worked the different EFI manufacturers over pretty hard last night. Said buddy...(Marcus)... is a Chief marine engineer, way smarter than me..... guy built his own Vans RV6 airplane that he flys all over the country.....
    His stateside daily driver is an 84 cj7 with 258 and Howell fuel injection. Marcus chose the Howell kit because it uses zero proprietary parts. His concern with all the other brands... Holley Sniper, EZ, Summit, ect is that they use parts that are specific to their setup. The Howell kit uses an off the shelf GM throttle body, Gm computer, low pressure pump and simple hose clamp fuel line. With the exception of the specific burned computer chip.... its all parts that I can source from anywhere.
    I called and talked to Howell about their setup and it sounds like they have sold quite a few of the oddfire setups. The guy was very knowledgeable about the oddfire engine and stated that all his setup needed was a tach signal. When he told me that he could ship the kit out today..... I was sold. :cry:

    I ordered:
    #HB225 225 CID Buick TBI Conversion Kit - Howell EFI Conversion & Wiring Harness Experts
    Groco® FV-65038 - 1/2" NPT x 3/8" NPT 6-Way Bronze Valve
    The 6 way fuel valve will allow me to run the return line to the tank that I am pulling from.
    I will of course add this install to my build thread when it happens.
     
  3. Jul 22, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    5,120
    That's much better than they used to be. When I talked to them several years ago, they were not that clear on the OF motor and I got a lot of 'I think xxx' when I talked to them... and it was almost $3K.

    I will have to disagree about the parts for the EZ - EFI, other than the body, all the sensors and injectors are off the shelf replaceable. Not sure yet about the Summit as I've not installed it and taken it apart.
     
  4. Jul 23, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    925
    The Howell kit that you purchased utilizes a GM1227747 ecm. You mentioned in the Rubicon 2020 thread:

    "The Howell components are all GM stock that are known for going at least 100K miles.
    I'll still throw a spare fuel pump, vacuum sealed, in the under seat tool box.... Just because I don't trust them.....:susp:".

    You have also mentioned your concern for being left high and dry by an electronic component failure in the field that you can not repair.

    As for durability, I would measure this unit's strength in years as apposed to mileage. The ecm was originally released 33 years ago in 1987 and was used for 4 years in vehicles with 4.3L, 305, 350 and 454 cubic inch engines that utilized TBI. There were thousands and thousands of these ecm put into service and can still be found in use today. I would be much more concerned with the inline fuel pump than the efi system in itself and you have a plan for that.

    As for confidence in a GM ecm, I offer you me, as an example. In my 1945 GPW, I installed a 1995 3.4L block, 1998 aluminum heads and the multiport port injection system. I control this with a GM1227727 ecm pulled from a 1992 Lumina. I tuned the system and have never had an issue with the fuel injection system at all.
     
  5. Jul 23, 2020
    BadGoat

    BadGoat How High Can You Climb?

    Northern Virginia
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    300
    I wrote this up for another thread, but think it might be useful here too. I have worked with both Holley and FiTech EFI systems. The initial question was which one I thought worked better...

    They both work very well. You will see a lot of complaints about both systems. But they generally end up being either installation errors, underlying problems with the motor, or inadequate fuel systems. My FiTech system is the LS system on my CJ5, not a throttle body unit. But many of the problems are the same between the TBI and LS type systems. My Sniper kit is on the 351 Cleveland in my 64 F100. The Cleveland did run well before I converted it from carb to TBI.

    Here are some of the common issues.

    Inadequate fuel supply. The fuel system needs to be upgraded to provide 58 psi at the throttle body unit, including the pump and all the fuel lines. FiTech initially pushed their Fuel Command Center (FCC) which was an engine bay mounted sump system that was filled with the original low pressure pump, then an internal high pressure pump would push fuel from the sump to the TBI unit. These FCC systems had lots of issues. The best option is to install an in-tank fuel pump, similar to the one Novak sells. I used the Novak system but had the pump fail so I replaced it with a Walbro 255 lph pump and it's working well. External pumps also work, but they are noisy and don't last as long. I am using an in-tank pump on my CJ5 and an external pump on my F100.

    Exhaust issues and vacuum leaks. Both systems are self learning with the aid of a wide band O2 sensor that must be installed as close to the engine as possible, usually immediately after the collector. Many old cars have some form of minor exhaust leak from loose bolts, to cracked manifolds, to poorly welded O2 sensor bungs. This allows outside air to enter the exhaust stream in front of the O2 sensor which causes a lean reading to the ECU so it richens the fuel mixture trying to compensate. It can be very frustrating to the installer trying to tune the system to run properly. Vacuum leaks cause similar issues by allowing unmetered air into the combustion process, so again the computer tries to compensate by adjusting the fuel mixture to reach the targeted Air-Fuel Ratio at the O2 sensor. The exhaust and vacuum systems must be tight.

    RFI Issues. The ECU on both the Holley Sniper and the FiTech kits are housed within the TBI unit. Many older vehicles have poor wiring under the hood and use unshielded ignition wires and/or non-resistor spark plugs. These wiring issues can cause interference with the ECU that can be very hard to track down. The installer says the car ran fine before, so it must be a bad TBI unit. The fix is shielded plug wires, resistor spark plugs, and good wiring practices that route other wires as far from the TBI unit as possible.

    Incorrect power wire hook up. The ECU needs a hot wire at both key-on and while cranking.

    Timing issues. The FiTech and Sniper kits will control timing on the motor, depending on what type of distributor you are using. Lots of people fight to get this work. On my F100 I'm running an MSD Billet distributor and an MSD 6 ignition box. I locked the distributor out and set the initial timing at 16 degrees (if I remember correctly) then let the Sniper unit do the rest. It works great. But this process can become far more complicated depending on what equipment you are running. The easy answer is to leave the timing control to the original set up. But computerized timing control is one of the benefits to upgrading to these systems. Do your research on this part to decide how you want to approach it.


    The Holly user interface on their handheld unit is much nicer then FiTech's. As is their general documentation and availability for Tech Support. I did have minor issues with both systems and they both took care of it under warranty even though both systems were past their warranty periods. The FiTech systems have really forced the other vendors to review their pricing strategies and driven down the costs to convert to EFI. And lots of professional shops are installing these units with happy customers.


    I'm very happy that I converted to an EFI system and certainly recommend it to others.

    Hope this helps.

    Mike
     
    windyhill likes this.
  6. Jul 23, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,559
    This is exactly why I went with the Howell components. The GM components are very solid and will be available for many, many years to come.
     
  7. Jul 23, 2020
    BadGoat

    BadGoat How High Can You Climb?

    Northern Virginia
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    300
    I have a question for those working with the Howell TBI kits.

    The Holley and FiTech TBI kits use a wide band O2 sensor or 2 and are self learning systems. They can also be fine tuned with a laptop either on the road, on a dyno, or remotely. The software is free. Does the Howell system have this capability to be fine tuned to the vehicle? If so, can it be done without purchasing something like HP Tuners software?

    Mike
     
  8. Jul 23, 2020
    BadGoat

    BadGoat How High Can You Climb?

    Northern Virginia
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    300
    This is an interesting point. I don’t know anyone who avoids Holley carburetors for this reason. Holley is still providing replacement fuel injection components from their early systems from 10-15 years ago.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  9. Jul 23, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,559
    It's the proprietary parts that have to be sourced from speed shops or straight from the manufacturer that concern me. Proprietary touch screens, ECM's, fuel delivery canisters ect....... Holley provides them.... Not Napa, Carquest, Advance, Oreilly's, ect......
    If I'm in Cedarville, Ca I can source parts from a variety of gm vehicles.... from a wrecking yard or farmers bone pile if needed.
     
  10. Jul 23, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    925
    The GM ecm that Howell is using is an ODB1 unit that uses a narrow band o2 sensor. The ecm generally predates the use of wide band o2 sensors. Where a wide band sensor and associated gauge comes into play with these units is when the tuner is developing the program's extremes such as heavy engine loads or upper rpm range. Once the tune has been developed, a chip is burned and installed into the unit. The engine then operates within the confines of the program based on input from the various sensors (o2, rpm, map, temperature, etc.)

    I know the aftermarket EFI manufactures like to stress their self tuning aspects. It does make the initial setup or startup easy but in all reality, just how often do you think your engine tune will change? Are you modifying the engine often? Realize also, once a tune is developed (which Howell will be doing) and in use, with the engine in operation and at normal operating temperature, the ecm enters closed loop operation. This means the sensors are providing feedback to the ecm for proper engine operation within the parameters of the program. All ecm's do this and it is not self tuning. The program is not changing.

    The best tuning program for use with these ecm's is TunerPro RT. It is free although most who use the programing software make the $39.00 donation to the developer to compensate him for his efforts of developing the software and providing updates. The program works the same whether a donation is made or not. There's just a few second delay at startup for the free version. TunerPro: TunerPro and TunerPro RT - Professional Automobile Tuning Software
     
  11. Jul 23, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    22,898
    I would also point out that the factory narrow-band O2 sensor for the GM ECU is a fraction of the cost of a wide-band sensor. It behooves Howell to configure the ROM for a specific engine before the sale ... their sales and production model pretty much depends on it. Some other 3rd party sellers like Bill Hamilton have a similar model using the same hardware. As I understand it, in this case the initial chip is a best-guess, and then there is a round of repeated logging and burning new chips, to converge on a best tune for the application.
     
  12. Jul 23, 2020
    masscj2a

    masscj2a Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Chester Mass
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    709
    I'm on the hunt information wise for my Dauntless going in my 46. I have three intakes, two Offenhauser intakes and a Holley performer . I also have a few stock 2 G intakes. I'm a year away from needing a FI unit, but trying to find a easy install and reliable system. Or should I say less complicated. I'm ok with carbs, but want more consistent performance. Watching closely, so keep talking.
     
  13. Jul 24, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    5,120
    I 'should' have the Summit one installed this winter on the current build. Finishing the body this summer, then back on the running gear to finish it next spring/summer. I'll try to remember to post it here.
     
  14. Jul 25, 2020
    masscj2a

    masscj2a Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Chester Mass
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2013
    Messages:
    709
    Winter, oh there is that nasty word again. Well, maybe not so much. Looking at new sleds this morning. Sounds like you have a plan for FI. Summit racing catalog is around here somewhere. Be cool if someone or someone's could do a full tech threads on a install. Hint, hint.
     
  15. Jul 25, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    2,559
    Howell claims that they have been selling the dauntless kits since 2015 and have a pretty good tune for most engines. They offer an adapter to mount to the 2G intake and 4bbl intakes. While the Howell kit is more expensive than others, it comes with everything needed to install fuel injection.
     
    masscj2a and Tom_Hartz like this.
  16. Jul 27, 2020
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,830
    One of these days ill install the megasquirt kit i have built and ready to go on.

    I see the different kits for 2 or 4 barrel intakes offered. Is there an advantage to one or the other if the throttle body is the same? Does the 4 barrel flow better or is it still restricted down to whatever size the tbi unit is is?
     
  17. Jul 28, 2020
    BadGoat

    BadGoat How High Can You Climb?

    Northern Virginia
    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2017
    Messages:
    300
    I agree the tune should rarely change. I think the bigger issue for most is there's no longer a need to start with a canned tune and ship your ECM or PROM off to somebody to have it fine tuned. If I'm not satisfied with the learned tune, I can data log to my PC and have a variety of online tuners build me a custom tune from the data log files, then just upload it to the ECM with no down time. Both the Sniper and the FiTech systems include data logging capability and tuning software and you can plug your laptop directly into the controllers if you want to adjust the tables yourself. You can also either leave the self tuning feature on or shut it off completely once you are happy with the tune.

    And as for cost of a wide band O2 sensor, the one I bought for my CJ5 was a Bosch for $81 shipped from Amazon. It's not like they are crazy money. Yes, I recognize that some of the narrow band sensors go for as little as $15.

    I truly think all of these EFI systems, OBD1 or OBD2, are better for the daily driver than a carburetor.

    As a side note, here are the standard replacement parts for a typical FiTech TBI based system.

    Coolant Temp Sensor
    AC Delco 213-928

    O2 Sensor
    Bosch 17014

    Fuel Pressure Regulator
    Bosch 3 bar 0280160557
    43psi regulator for the Go Street and Mean Street units.
    Bosch 4 bar 0280160575
    58psi regulator for all units except Go Street and Mean Street.

    MAP Sensor
    Not serviceable. Part of the ECU on the throttle body units.

    Injector
    Fitech only $35 each

    IAC Motor
    AC Delco 19333273

    TPS
    AC Delco 213895



    Mike
     
    Fireball likes this.
  18. Dec 17, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member 2020 Sponsor

    Louisville, Ky
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,293
    DISCLAIMER--- The information below is what I have learned at this point, statements may be off a little. If you have any info to add, please do.

    Been looking at EFI for my Jeep. Holley and Fitech are make TB that are 2 barrel. Both of these are compact, the ECU is in the TB, there are 4 to 5 wires to hook up. With these you will not need to change your intake manifold.


    The FiTech, from what I have read you will need a adapter for your Rochester intake manifold. You need a HEI Distributor, will not work with Pretonics in the distributor. FiTech offers a a couple ways to get fuel to the TB. One is a inline pump, this is a push pump so it needs to with in 2 feet of the fuel tank and they want you to draw off the bottom of the tank, siphon If running 2 tanks, having the pump with in 2 feet of the tank can not be, drawing off the bottom of the tank, you would need to redo tanks. You can do a in tank pump, having 2 pumps for 2 tanks and switching them may be a issue. They offer a a reservoir tank, 1/2 gallon that goes under the hood. The vehicle mechanical pump fills the reservoir and the pump in the tank then pump fuel to the TB at the correct pressure.

    The Holley TB is based on the Rochester 2GC, it is a bolt up connection. Hollley uses a inline pump. The Holley has some good points that I can not list at this time.

    The big issue is whether these will work with a odd-fire. From reading and PM members on the forum, there can be a problem of the ECU get a good RPM signal and if you are not, what is the fix. I am just starting to look at these, will make buying decision soon. As I talk to tech persons I learn more.
     
  19. Dec 17, 2020
    zila

    zila I throw poop

    Rock Springs,...
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,195
    They aren't he only one . Hamilton does the same as well as Affordable TBI. My unit from Affordable uses GM parts if needed. IMO Hamilton has the best Customer support hands down.
     
  20. Dec 17, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    3,054
    A crank trigger of some sort is the best way to get around the odd-fire signal issues.
     
    Jrobz23 likes this.
New Posts