Points vs. Pertronix

Ok I'll be the nay sayer here.

Pertronics is simply a Hall Effect sensor type mechanical ignition point replacement kit. It makes no improvement on performance. It only removes the need for frequent point checks, cleaning and adjustments. People like to refer to it as electronic ignition which it really, by todays standard for electronic ignition, is not. A properly maintained set of mechanical points will perform equally as well as the pertronix.

The Carter YF is a very reliable carb. Rebuild it correctly with a modern kit containing rubber parts compatible with the additives in todays gas and the Carter will always be there for you. The rebuild on the Carter will be cheaper than the acquisition of a India built Solex and it's necessary mods to the jeep.

I have owned vehicles with both Pertronix and Solex's and neither over the last 47 driving and wrenching years has impressed me as an improvement in performance on any of them.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

The main liability of a Kettering trigger (points) is the high-current switching they are required to do. All of the coil primary curent goes through the points. The condensor is there to "debounce" this high-current circuit, and reduce arcing across the points.

One option is to install "electronic ignition" that eliminates the high current switching and turns the points into a simple switch. You should also be able to eliminate the condensor when you lower the current. Velleman has an inexpensive kit to take the current load off the points http://www.designnotes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=K2543&Category_Code=alaa

This replaces the points with a large transistor. Then the only wear is to the fiber block riding on the cam, and the points should last a long, long time. This conversion will give you most of the advantage of the Pertronix conversion at a much lower cost.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

for a daily driver the points become a pain in the cold weather. the op wanted dd reliability. cost effectiveness. and has no experience with points. for turbocharged f134 ignition I would go a very different route to obtain a strong spark and there is a thread on converting omix elec to hei. but on this application keeping it simple like stock would be best. imho points Ignition is for those who enjoy routine maintenance. and pertronics will pay for itself in a few sets of points without the upkeep. I don't recommend trial and error with points on the dd in winter.

 

Umm, sorry but the pertronix does increase performance by giving a steady trigger unhindered by ambient temperatures which can change the resistance of the points. The pertronix does not degrade like points will do to spring tension changes, transfer of material between the contact points, corrosion issues, gap changes caused by wear of the contact surfaces and the rubbing block and distributor shaft cam, etc., etc., etc.
As all these things change and degrade, and let's be realistic, even the best maintained points system WILL degrade due to these factors, performance will suffer.

I've compared the two and seen first hand improvement using the pertronix coupled with an MSD ignition box.
My old race 225 would probably still be alive if I had not converted from the Mallory dual point distributor to electronic. I gained a couple thousand rpm top end from that engine I couldn't get with any combination of points distributors I tried. Unfortunately it allowed me to over rev the engine and break a wrist pin. Obviously this is unlikely to be an issue with a stock 225.


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Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Actually I shouldn't have said ambient temperatures I should have said resistance generated by temperature rise caused by current flow. You caught me on that one. And yes, it will make a difference on the performance of the points.

No I can't source a "published" source for this information. It comes from various experiences and testing at my current work and other places I've worked like the Performance Engine Machine shop I worked at and was associated with for many years.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Cracks me up how people automatically think performance equates to hp or torque. Ease of starting in cold and hot situations, better idle quality, etc. is also performance. There was a time when the Kettering ignition and the condenser was the "little black box" also. If points are your thing, great! more power to you. If less maintenance and better driveability are your thing, then there are options. Everyone has their opinion of what works for them.
How a system works can also be dependent on location. Where I live, if you park a vehicle outside for more than a month with points you better be prepared to file them and readjust. The humidity corrodes them very fast up here. That can be different from vehicle to vehicle but I know on my daughter's Jeep I have to periodically start it (about every two weeks) or plan on replacing or filing the points due to corrosion just to get it started.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

yup !!! but i would still pick up the solex, thats a good price, doesn't hurt to have a spare and can be traded

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

I'll share my experience FWIW. 67CJ5 F134. Couldn't get it to run right with Carter. Tried everything. Put a Solex on it and Noticed Improvement. Don't ask me the hows and whys cause I dunno. Couple years ago put a Pertronix in. Noticed Improvement. Starts easier than before, idles better, revs higher. Don't ask me the hows and whys cause I dunno. The only thing I do know is what the seat of my pants tell me. I'm keepin 'em both...
Dunno much about resistances or turbo encapsulators but I know improvement. Like I said, FWIW

Sgogpn,
Mike

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Sorry, double post

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Performance is a very abused word and is always twisted to fit sales pitches.

Performance with auto's has and always will be the product or output of the vehicle. What is silly is how many people try to apply the term performance to an item they want to sell or support.

So far no one on this planet has issued a written test document showing an increase in performance for a Jeep F134 with Pertronix in place of points. Why is this. Simple there is no measurable performance increase.

No one has to this date issued a performance test report for a set of new points properly installed and operated cold at startup versus a set of new points after a long warmup. Why is this? There is no measurable change in performance.

If someone does not agree with this then show us the performance test report. Kinda like "Show me the car fax"!

Maintainability or ease of maintenance is always an important consideration for any vehicle owner but it is not measured by output or the product of vehicle action/movement. It is measured by time and money savings comparisons. Bottom line $70 to $80 Pertronix vs $6 to $10 points and condenser.

In this add Performance is used but they fail to point out that the performance gain claimed is over a worn or malfunctioning set of points not a new, properly installed and maintained set. The only legitimate claim in this ad is the elimination of hassles with point type ignitions.

Something even more interesting is the statement usually found on all message boards attached to this issue.

To throw temperature changes during operation of points into this discussion with resultant degradation of performance of the contacts without any supported measured data is completely without basis. This resistance and temperature change will effect any electrical or electronic circuit to some degree and in most cases is not accurately measurable and at best can only be addressed with hypotheses.

Statements like these are found all over the web:

The why is the original parts were malfunctioning or not properly installed/maintained/adjusted.

Someone above mentioned the performance of the 4 cyl jeep and the pin head dancers. That is a great analogy and hits the nail on the head. There is no real measurable performance gains to be made with the F134 without spending a lot of money making some serious changes to the beast. Dick Hickey did this in the 60's and early 70's and it proved successful but not cost effective.

Don't construe my comments to being unfavorable of the Pertronix change over. For those who are tired of points or just can't master their installation and maintenance then by all means make the switch. You will enjoy the reliability and ease of maintenance. But don't make the switch using the false performance claims by the vendors and manufacturer. Or the misunderstood performance claims made by folks that just did not understand why it seemed suddenly better.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Well Wes,
You are welcome to your opinion as we all are. As I said we did serious testing at my work and former place of employment. We did them on a Dynamometer. We did the comparison with NEW parts installed. All the tech's involved know the how's and why-for's and how-to's to setting up all types of ignition systems and maximizing performance out of all of them. There were noticeable gains in ease of starting, idle quality, etc. when switching from points to most electronic ignitions. We tested about 10 different systems over several days. There were a few that netted little to no gain. The Pertronix was not one of these. We did not test fuel economy however. We did not "publish" these tests as this was a project from bunch of people in industry who really wanted to know the low down. There was even an engineer involved. Because we did not publish the results makes them inaccurate or untrue? I think not. Another reason we did not publish the results is because none of us wanted to deal with the resultant nay-saying arguments from pro-kettering ignition afficionados. Sound familiar?

If there is no gain and no advantage over points why is NO manufacturer of automobiles that must meet emissions, fuel economy, and driveability standards still using them?
Again, performance is not just hp or torque but many other things as well.

As far as carrying points as a backup, you should do that if running points too. If the condenser goes bad then you're screwed anyway and it frequently burns out the points. Only so much they can be filed. I have HEI in my v-6 and carry an extra module. If going to the woods, desert, whatever you should carry spares of critical parts. Scads have been written about this and it's just common sense.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

You really should stop calling the Pertronix Point Replacement Kits, "Electronic Ignition Systems! It is nothing more than a magnetic sensor that performs the duty of a switch. Nothing more and nothing less. Today's auto manufacturers are not installing Pertronix Point Replacement kits! They are installing electronic (read computer controlled) engine management systems. Pertronix when compared to the systems installed in todays cars is archaic. Did your company perform their tests with the same F134 engine in both tests using a BRAND NEW STOCK DISTRIBUTOR and then replace the BRAND NEW STOCK DISTRIBUTOR with a BRAND NEW PERTRONIX KIT ? I would really suspect the report is not published or being released because the results cannot be properly validated or were not actually performed under exact industry standard testing conditions.

You missed the point entirely here. The point I made was they carried a spare set of stock contact points and not a spare Pertronix kit.

You are correct. What it means is that unpublished tests are not meant to be referred to in a public comparison when only you have access to the complete report. If you are not willing to publish the report then no one in their right mind is going to swallow without any doubt the small bits you toss on the message board.

That leaves us back at "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion"!

PS, Please note that no where in my post did I say the Pertronix Kit was not a good thing. Only that it should be peddled honestly and the prospective buyer should be aware of what it really can or can't do.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Edited for potentially disrespectful content.

Wes, of course the Pertronix ignition is "electronic." In usual parlance, something electronic uses active electronic devices like transistors to carry out whatever it needs to. Device performance (ie switching speed, rise time, peak voltage) is very limited when the designers are limited to mechanical switches and passive devices (Ls, Rs and Cs). The characteristics of the Pertronix switching in the time domain can easily be different from the Kettering trigger performance. I have not studied the time domain characteristics of either of these spark methods, but it's obvious that constraints are different in each case, and the two systems can have different characteristics in both time and amplitude.

Nick's making a valuable contribution to the discussion here with his knowledge and observations. And each reader can judge for themselves the veracity of conflicting claims. Very few of us have the means, time and opportunity to make even a quasi-scientific comparison of any of the methods, principles or devices discussed, advocated and dissed here and in other forums. It seems quite unfair to criticize Nick because his reporting of his findings is not up to your standards for comparison.

You have a valid point that the actual performance of the Pertronix unit may not live up to the advertising claims, but jeez, it's advertising. And I agree, lots of the noted performance increases could be attributed to the replacement of old, tired components at the same time the upgrades are installed. Additionally, confirmation bias could be largely to blame for perceived improvements in some cases.

Finally, the Kettering trigger is gone because it's less reliable and requires vastly more service than an "equivalent" electronic trigger. Modern electronics are simply more reliable than their mechanical counterparts.

JMO.

 

Re: cj6 as a dd questions

Wow an I thought he was only askin about drivin it two miles back an forth to work with out it breakin down.